shippingsteel Posted 2 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2011 Hey Trajan, due mainly to your prompting I just did another quick scout around, and as luck would have it stumbled across the VC.Schilling mark.! This inscription is relatively clear and as plain as day shows to be the representation of Schilling. Its got the letters and markings for the S, H, I and G. So this is definitely another Eureka.! moment - I thought I was never going to find another one of these, and bang there it was again right in front of me. So a little like collecting postage stamps, I think I may just about have the full set. I may be able to start doing up the summary now - when I find the time.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 December , 2011 Share Posted 2 December , 2011 Having just read the above, methinks NOW is certainly the time to change from my usual after work beer to a glass of decent wine to go with my regular Friday kitchen duties (aka cooking!) in celebration of your achievement! S>S, this is wonderful news! In fact later on I will drain the last quarter inch of my last decent malt for this one! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 23 December , 2011 Share Posted 23 December , 2011 This is a wonderful thread - thanks for putting this information up S/S (and others). I just picked up a very reasonably priced Turkish 1903 bayonet, and was thrilled to find this thread had very comprehensive details on interpreting the various markings. S/S - just for your information it appears to be Weyersberg produced and is dated AH1321. I imagine that the majority of the remaining unshortened/ unmodified Turkish 1903 bayonets would have been captured at Gallipoli/ Palestine etc? Once again thanks for posting this information. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 23 December , 2011 Share Posted 23 December , 2011 ... This is a wonderful thread ... I just picked up a very reasonably priced Turkish 1903 bayonet, and was thrilled to find this thread had very comprehensive details on interpreting the various markings. Hi jscott, Yes, we all owe a great debt to S>S's perserverance on this one! Any chance of a photo of your new bayonet? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 23 December , 2011 Share Posted 23 December , 2011 Hi jscott, Yes, we all owe a great debt to S>S's perserverance on this one! Any chance of a photo of your new bayonet? Trajan Hi Trajan - I really need to learn how to upload photos and will put up some photos when I do. No scabbard for this one (which I normally have as a pre-requisite) but at 1/10th of the price of other 1903s I have seen online, and with a lovely patina covering the whole bayonet I couldn't say no! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2011 S/S - just for your information it appears to be Weyersberg produced and is dated AH1321. Thanks for providing this information Jonathon, I have just added it to the survey list data which is still slowly growing. It is starting to show a good pattern of when these were produced and by whom. I now have nearly 60 items referenced. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 S/S, here are the markings on the 2 turks, have another on the way minus the quillion, will get pic to you when it arrives mate, Cheers, Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Thanks for the photos Aleck - much appreciated, and they are now added to the list. They are both made by JP. Sauer which has proved to be a very common maker. They seem to have only made the M1890 version, and must have got a huge slab of the contract to supply bayonets for the M1893 Mauser rifles that went out to Turkey. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Thought it was probably about time I posted some photos of my Turkish bayonets - these ones have just come off my workbench, so a good photo opportunity. The top one is the M1887 bayonet which was made for the same model Mauser rifle, that was chambered for the Turks in the 9.5x60mm blackpowder cartridge.The one below it is the more common M1890 bayonet, again made for the same model Mauser, this time in the smaller calibre 7.65x53mm smokeless round.Apart from the muzzle ring diameter and the different muzzle ring offset, they are exactly identical in dimensions. The M1887 used the old 'bar on band' attachment.While the M1890 was attached using the bayonet lug on the underside of the front band, and sitting in the more modern 'accepted' position underneath the barrel.Both of these bayonets were made by Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Cie of Solingen - the top M1887 was made in 1888 while the M1890 example was made in 1891.Both models used the same pattern of metal mounted leather scabbard as shown at the bottom, which could nearly be worth more than both bayonets combined.!Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Very, very nice! But how do you get the steel to come up so beautifully? Gun-/sewing-machine oil and a brush? Talking of scabbards for these... Last one I bought came with the locket/throat and it looked like this had only recently been removed from the scabbard... Questioning confirmed the suspicion - the seller had removed it and thrown it away as it was split and mouldy... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Very, very nice! But how do you get the steel to come up so beautifully? Gun-/sewing-machine oil and a brush? It very much depends on the state of the bayonet when you first find it - my personal position is that I want to restore and preserve historical artifacts for the future. So with that in mind I want to clean away any dried grease, gunk, dirt and rust to restore it as much as possible and prevent any further deterioration in its condition. I use a top quality solvent based gun oil for much of this work, combined with extra fine wire wool for rubbing, and an oiled rust 'pusher' such as a small screwdriver. You need to break up all the 'active' rust spots and get rid of any of that reddish colour in your oil. The gun oil will help 'soften' the rust spots if you let it soak in a while. With the above bayonets, the M1887 has a near mint blade that has never been sharpened or seen much use, however the handle areas have rust staining from neglect. It has spent many years stored in its scabbard which has protected the blade extremely well, but leaving the other exposed areas to take the full brunt from the elements. The other M1890 bayonet is a good example of what I call a 'battle bayonet'. It has seen hard use, its blade is sharpened and nicked and its crossguard is bent backwards. The very front top of the muzzle ring even looks like it has taken a hit from an incoming round, leaving a small indentation in the metal - perhaps why it has been bent back.? It did require quite a lot of work to restore, but it can be surprising just how much of the rust and gunk can be removed if you are prepared to put in the time to do it properly. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 ... I use a top quality solvent based gun oil for much of this work, combined with extra fine wire wool for rubbing, and an oiled rust 'pusher' such as a small screwdriver....the M1887 has a near mint blade that has never been sharpened or seen much use... The other M1890 bayonet is a good example of what I call a 'battle bayonet'. ... it can be surprising just how much of the rust and gunk can be removed if you are prepared to put in the time to do it properly. Thanks again S>S for the information and advice. My only problem is one I have alluded to before: get a bayonet out and the nippers are here just when I want to get to work on it in whatever context - marks, cleaning, whatever! Quite simple, I am not happy with pointy things out when the nippers are around... OK, now to business. My new one is a real short M1903 (Kiesling 548). The blade and wood grips are fine (the original metal scabbard is patchy), but the pommel on this is rusted to bu**ery, although traces of the sultan's mark are there. Now, this has a crescent on the inside bottom quillion part of the crossguard, and I can see it has the makers markings and year date on the inside upper part of the crossguard - but these are too rusted at present to make out. So, quick question (missus is calling 'Dinner' for third time!) - I haveread somewhere that these short 1903's were all made by Weyersburg etc. True or false? Cheers. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2012 From the description it sounds like your bayonet is the Turkish M1913, or at least thats what collectors have started to refer to them as, in the absence of proper records. These were locally made and have the makers mark stamped on the crossguard, together with the date stamped as 1331, so thats how they got the M1913 designation. Being of indigenous manufacture they tend to lack the build quality of the German made bayonets, and certainly not up to Solingen standards.! So WKC.? No, that is false. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Hi all Finally worked out how to upload photos - here is my 1903... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 and the best closeup I could get of the maker marking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Finally worked out how to upload photos - here is my 1903... Not bad, the M1903's are hard to find - and just like the rest of the uncut Turkish bayonets these days, they are getting scarcer (and pricier all the time) You're spot on with regards the maker. Weyersberg, Kirschbaum were by far the most common maker of these M1903's, going from my survey data.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Thanks S/S. The photos probably don't do the markings justice, I may try to redo in daylight as our lighting at home is not really sufficient for closeups. I suspect that this bayonet would probably clean up very nicely, but I really like the even patina (which appears stable with no active rust spots etc) so will be leaving it as it is. Its one of the few bayonets I own with no scabbard but it appears that these jump in price around fourfold (from what I paid) for this so I cant really justify it - and for some reason the majority of 1903 scabbards I have seen are in pretty terrible condition as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2012 And for some reason the majority of 1903 scabbards I have seen are in pretty terrible condition as well. Yes it was like that for the German S98 scabbards as well - because the scabbards were so long and slender, when the soldier crouched down they would bend over. This caused the leather to crease and from then they would begin to fall apart. Even during the wartime, the Germans had to overcome this with 'ersatz' steel versions. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 OK S>S, I guess you are settling down to a nice quiet evening, so here is a nasty marking on a bayonet that just popped up on Turkish e-b*y for you to play with for your data base! The condition, by the way, is about average for most of what I see over here in Turkey - and this one can be yours if you have USD 200 spare... See what I mean about crazy prices over here??!! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 From the description it sounds like your bayonet is the Turkish M1913, or at least thats what collectors have started to refer to them as, in the absence of proper records. Thanks yet again S>S! I have just followed up your suggestion and checked http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Identification_Guide/Turkey/turkey_2.html and indeed everything ties in with that, that this new baby is a 'M 1913' - but with an intact quillion and original scabbard! I have also re-visited Kiesling and I see that the fullers and ricasso on the 'official' short 1903 are different. Learning curve progresses ever upwards... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 10 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2012 OK S>S, I guess you are settling down to a nice quiet evening, so here is a nasty marking on a bayonet that just popped up on Turkish e-b*y for you to play with for your data base! No, well into my bed by then thank goodness - about 1.45am over here at the time of your post.! But thanks anyway for the extra marking and date to go onto my survey list - its now up to 65. And just when I'd finished telling Jscott that WKC was the most common maker of the M1903, you go ahead and drag out the only other identified maker of these which was Simson & Cie.! The condition of that bayonet really makes me shudder - especially when I think as to how much work would be required to clean it up. And those prices are just outlandish for such as that. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 ... And just when I'd finished telling Jscott that WKC was the most common maker of the M1903, you go ahead and drag out the only other identified maker of these which was Simson & Cie.!The condition of that bayonet really makes me shudder - especially when I think as to how much work would be required to clean it up. And those prices are just outlandish for such as that. Just a note to say it was fortunate that I downloaded the picture the day it came up on the Turkish e-b**, as by last night it had gone! Yes, despite the work that needs to be done on it and the 'otlandish' price, somebody bought it! I don't normally log onto that site every day - just by chance I was doing so this week - but I'll certainly keep a weather eye on it from now on. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Trajan; How is that Roman Camel Corps paper coming? I am salivating. Bob Lembke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Bob, thanks for interest, but camels are pigeon-holed(!) sadly while I get another paper ready for a deadline S>S, the attached are from Sigge's bayonets - http://www.sigges-ba....de/index2.html - just in case you don' t have them! He list them as an 1890, a 1903 and a 1913, and I haven't time to check, I'm afraid (the nipper's bedtime). The 1913 is for reference. He has this as a 1903 but it is clearly XX31, and so a 'M 1913', and looks like the one I have just bought... Cheers! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob lembke Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 Pigeon-holing a camel would seem to be a thankless task. I understand that they are quite stubborn beasts, and if they can't bite or kick you, they might even spit or pee on you. Quite an image. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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