pow

[Guest bigsteve2255]

hope someone can help regarding my grandfather JOSEPH HENRY LARAWAY 36523 a private in the 11 leicestershire reg who was taken prisoner on the 22nd march 1918 i think near st quentin. on the attached form i wonder if anyone can explain the entries after prisoner of war are they the camp and pow number would be very grateful

yours etc STEVE LARAWAY

[KevinBattle]

Hi, Steve and welcome

You're obviously one of the few lucky ones who's relatives records have survived. I see he married his sweetheart in 1919..

I take it you realise that late March 1918 was when the German Army, swollen with troops transferred from the Eastern Front after Russia had been knocked out of the War, made a great effort to break the stalemate on the Western Front? Thousands of soldiers were killed, wounded or captured until the line was finally stabilised after a couple of weeks.

He entered France sometime after 1915, being entitled to the Victory and British War medals.

I'll keep looking to see what more there is.

I'm not quite sure of what form of maths was employed in calculating his Service... enlisted 22/5/1916 with 2 years and 283 days, 236 in France and 258 as a PoW...

He had cartilage trouble in his left knee, but refused an operation, and still got a £30 gratuity (but no bonus!)

Appointed unpaid (then paid) L/Cpl with 7th Bn, then reverted to Private on further transfer to 9th Bn

As respects the notations after he was Posted Missing, it looks like the information may have come "Authy WO 21st" which I can't decipher into anything meaningful, except perhaps the "21st" might be the last day that he was known to be with the 11th Bn... perhaps the information came from the War Office after receiving Prisoner Returns via the Red Cross. As the remarks all seem to be dated the 22nd March, I doubt that's what they mean... They wouldn't know his PoW No or Camp that quickly! Much more likely it refers to where the info on him being captured came from (a Warrant Officer in the 21st Blankshires??)

The next entry is back at base Depot when he was repatriated in December 1918, just in time for Christmas.

seems like he put his gratuity to good use and married your grandma without much further delay!

For what it's worth, of the 46 men killed that day in the Battalion, only 3 have known graves, 1 each at Grevillers, Morchies and Sauchy Cauchy, which might help find where they were fighting that day.

[Andrew Upton]

As respects the notations after he was Posted Missing, it looks like the information may have come "Authy WO 21st" which I can't decipher into anything meaningful, except perhaps the "21st" might be the last day that he was known to be with the 11th Bn... perhaps the information came from the War Office after receiving Prisoner Returns via the Red Cross.

Authy - "Authority".

[Adam Llewellyn]

Hello Steve and welcome to the Forum,

I don't have access to Ancestry at this present time, so can't look at Joseph's records, but would he have been a Lancashire lad by any chance?

Just in case you didn't know,

11th (Service) Battalion (Midland Pioneers)

Formed at Leicester in October 1915 by the Mayor and a local committee.

March 1916 : landed in France.

1 April 1916 : attached to 6th Division as a Pioneer Bn

The 11th Battalion diary records for the 21st and 22nd,

21/3/18

FREMICOURT. At 12.10am Received orders from Division to ‘Stand To’ in the VAULX – MORCHIES Line from about C.20.d. to about J.5.b. (Sheet 57c). Companies were in position by 5.00am. The enemy attacked heavily, after an intense bombardment (which lasted from about 5.00am) at 8.00am and established themselves in position in front of the wire of the VAULX – MORCHIES Line by the evening. At 10.00pm The rations and water and ammunition were sent up to Companies original billets. At 5.30pm Received message from Sergeant N. H. A. BARRADELL, acting Company Sergeant Major of “D” Company to the effect that all the officers of his Company had become casualties and that he was in command of the Company. Six officers and about 30 other ranks were sent up from HQ to reinforce “D” Company.

22/3/18

FREMICOURT. At 9.30am Transport moved back to about H.13.c. Sheet 57c. Two platoons of “C” Company withdrawn in the morning to the Army Line about J.8. and 9 Sheet 57c. and the remaining two in the afternoon. At 6.00pm All HQ details moved up and dug in and occupied a line just behind the Army Line about J.14.b. At 4.00pm Transport moved to PIONEER CAMP, LOGEAST WOOD G.1.b Sheet 57c. 1 man of the transport was killed by shell fire. What remained of the Companies were withdrawn to the new line J.14.b. Total casualties of the operations:- 2^nd Lt. A. ASHTON, 2^nd Lt. C. MILLWARD and 2^nd Lt. W. BAXTER were killed in action. Captain R. BENTLEY, Lt. H. H. GRUNDTVIG M.C., Lt. F. J. MEGGITT, 2^nd Lt. R. J. NAYLOR, 2^nd Lt. O. H. SEWELL, 2^nd Lt. E. BEDSON, 2^nd Lt. C. O. R. STEVISON were wounded. Captain J. C. SPENCER, Lt. A. L. HICKS, 2^nd Lt. N. H. STEVENSON, 2^nd Lt. A. SUMMERS are missing. 30 other ranks were killed, 106 wounded and 81 missing.

Joseph would have been 1 of the 81, I'm afraid that I can't tell you how many of the 81 were Pow's.

Regards. Llew.

[kenf48]

As respects the notations after he was Posted Missing, it looks like the information may have come "Authy WO 21st" which I can't decipher into anything meaningful, except perhaps the "21st" might be the last day that he was known to be with the 11th Bn... perhaps the information came from the War Office after receiving Prisoner Returns via the Red Cross. As the remarks all seem to be dated the 22nd March, I doubt that's what they mean... They wouldn't know his PoW No or Camp that quickly! Much more likely it refers to where the info on him being captured came from (a Warrant Officer in the 21st Blankshires??)

I can't access Ancestry at the moment either but I think it says 'Authy (authority as suggested above) WO (War Office) List (weekly casualty list). So we have a soldier reported missing, who is then confirmed as a POW and the information is published in the War Office weekly casualty list. I can't read the line below other than '507' but the final notation may be a reference to date of the above list.

It would have been important to note the date and cite some authority as to his capture as he would have received back pay once it was confirmed he was still alive.

From the IWM Fact shee on POWs ;-

"The Department of Printed Books also holds a set of War Office Weekly Casualty Lists from August 1917 to March 1919 that contain references to killed, wounded and captured servicemen. This is a difficult source to use and does not yield much information for those seeking prisoners."

As he is a close relative the Red Cross has some records but very expensive for a fishing expedition

http://www.redcross....risoners-of-war

also limited records at TNA but a quick search didn't help http://www.nationala...sonline/pow.asp

Many of those captured March 1918 were held in France and suffered great hardship as the camps were not as organised as more established facilities. The 507 may possibly be a reference to the camp but I don't know, most camps had names, so I have my doubts.

Ken

[Guest bigsteve2255]

thank you all for your help .Llew yes he was from lancashire ,,a little mill town called Oswaldtwistle, in which i still live . Always wondered why he was placed in the 11th leicstershire whilst not 5 miles away the town of Accrington had what we call the Accy Pals and there were east lancashire regiments could you explain the reason please

steve

[kenf48]

The short answer to your question is we'll never know but see http://www.1914-1918.net/notlocal.html

Looking at the record it looks like he was conscripted under the terms of the Military Service Act , by which time men were simply sent where they were needed.

Ken

[KevinBattle]

Geoff's Search Engine produces a total of 51 deaths that day for the 11th Bn, including 3 officers, (2nd Lt Baxter, Lt Grundtvig, who must have died of wounds, and 2nd Lt Millward), so that another 18 of the Missing were subsequently found to have died. So 63 captured, plus the four missing officers. 2nd Lt Frederick James Ashton, (perhaps someone assumed that "Fred" was short for ALFred?) who also died that day, was 2nd Bn, attached to 11th.

[Adam Llewellyn]

Hello Steve,

Looking at the Soldiers Died in the Great War database, all the Leicestershire Regiment men listed between service number 36516 - 36759 are formerly with the East Lancashire Regiment, so I'm assuming that the surviving men between the same numbers would also be formerly East Lancs. Like I've previously mentioned I don't have access to Ancestry just now, but I would have thought that Joseph's records would have shown this? The records that are available for the men within these numbers and which I have previously viewed all seem to show enlistment around mid 1916 and date of entry to France on the 17th or 19th December 1916, there are one or two with 1914-15 enlistment dates, to which I would say were men possibly wounded and returning to service. I would also assume that the batch of East Lancs. would have been transfered to the Leicesters on or not long after arriving in France.

Just out of interest there are two men shown as being residents of Oswaldtwistle within the group,

36538 Pte. Herbert Holden 9th Leicesters, formerly 27642 East Lancs.

Killed in action 15.06.1917. Enlisted Accrington 28.06.1916. Date of Entry 17.12.1916.

36638 Pte. James Henry Sharples 9th Leicesters, formerly 28216 East Lancs.

Killed in Action 04.10.1917. Enlisted Accrington, no records available.

There could be more men from Oswaldtwistle, but SDGW doesn't always show the mans residence.

If you would like to see the complete list of East Lancs. men, then please do not hesitate to ask and I'll post it up later.

Regards. Llew.

[Guest]

Just found this discussion about Joseph Henry Laraway (your late grandfather) is my wifes grandads brother, as my wife and her sister are building a family tree it would be nice if you have any information about long lost relatives.

[Kath]

checkmate, are you able to go on Ancestry?

There are Laraway Family Trees which have JOSEPH HENRY LARAWAY.

You could contact the owners to see if Steve is one of them.

[JWK]

@checkmate

Here's Joseph Henry Laraway 's Red Cross card.

He was held in POW camp Friedrichsfeld (near Wesel)

You probably have all his "vital statistics" already, but maybe not this info.

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3742094/3/2/

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0204/C_G1_E_04_01_0204_0078.JPG/4

[clk]

Hi checkmate,

Welcome to the forum.

Joseph has a set of service papers on Findmypast (link), which should also be available on Ancestry.

There is also another PoW register entry for him which confirms that prior to his captivity being administered by the Friedrichsfeld camp, it was administered by the camp at Parchim.

Images sourced from Findmypast

The column headings to the register read as:

Column 1 

Lfd. Nr. = Serial number/register entry number

Column 2
a. Familienname = Surname
b. Vorname (nur der Rufname) = Forename (only forename by which known)
c.  nur bei Russen vorname des Vaters = Russians only, forename of father

Column  3
Rank
 
Column 4
a/b. Truppenteil = Unit
c. Komp. = Company
 
Column 5
 a/b. Gefangennahme (Ort und Tag) = Taken prisoner (place & date)
c.  vorhergehender Aufenhaltsort = Previously at (location):
 
Column 6
a. Geburtstag und -Ort = Date & place of birth
b/c.  Adresse des nächsten Verwandten = Address of NOK

Brief contemporary descriptions of the camps are:

Images sourced from archive.org

After a straight forward (no cost) registration with the National Archives, the Battalion and Division war diaries for 22nd March 1918 are available as free downloads - see here and here. There is help on reading map references here.

Regards

Chris