trajan Posted 1 March , 2014 Share Posted 1 March , 2014 Found one more M 71 that's a WWI veteran... This one is Bavarian marked - B.7.F.B.2.33 - 7th Bavarian 'Feld-Artillerie-Batterie', which I gather is a wartime unit. The flat side of the hilt is engraved "A SOUVENIR OF PERWEZ / BELGIUM / FOUND NOV 29TH 1918 / ??? . Given the date this was a late pick-up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 March , 2014 Share Posted 1 March , 2014 I managed to get a bit of the last line of that inscription on the Bavarian M 71. Seems to be a presentation piece to a named individual, received 25 12 1918! Nice Xmas pressie! Wouldn't mind one myself! Also, according to http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GREATWAR/2004-10/1096919344, the 7th Canadian Cavalry Field Ambulance of the Canadian Cavalry Brigade was at Perwez from November 24th to December 15th 1918. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 March , 2014 Share Posted 1 March , 2014 Happy to be corrected, as usual, but is the 7 FB a battery within the Royal Bavarian 7th Field Artillery Regiment "Prince Regent Luitpold" (Kgl. Bayerisches 7. Feldartillerie-Regiment Prinz-Regent Luitpold)? So this marking would be 2nd battery of that unit? The unit was a part of the 1st Royal Bavarian Division... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 March , 2014 Share Posted 3 March , 2014 This photo on http://www.flickr.com/photos/paranoid_womb/5824856282/ - is of interest - a group photo of the Hannoversches Pionier-Bataillon Nr.10, 2. OR 4.Kompanie captioned 'Weltkrieg 1914', while at Brunsbuttelkoog (Belgium?), and the visible bayonets seem to be mostly if not all pionier faschinenmesser 1871...!!! OK, so not the regular M71, but if this unit, in the thick of it from 1914, went to war using pionier faschinenmesser 1871, the odd's are on that other units had these and M 71's also. BTW, this unit is known to have used 1915 dated 98/05's with high ears (see http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=193680) so they were probably re-equipped pretty sharpish! Trajan PS: SS, any chance of the width of the blade of yours - to see if it is a cadet issue or not? Also any chance of a photo of that mark? The only one I know of that is pre WWII is the name in an arc over Solingen as here on a W/76, marked 37.R.R.10.88 and so 'regular' service issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 March , 2014 Share Posted 3 March , 2014 I suppose that I should have added that as I understand it, 37.R.R.10.88 would be 37 Reserve (Infantry) Regiment, and so in the 50th Reserve Infantry Brigade of the V.Reserve Korps, which in August 1914 was assigned to 5.Armee forming part of the centre for the offensive that month. Always happy to be corrected by the cogoscenti though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 3 March , 2014 Share Posted 3 March , 2014 Contunued looking into these things reveals a Saxon-issued AR/99-dated pionier faschinenmesser M.1871 and a sawback- removed one (so around in 1917 or later!) which is also AR/99. And a Prussian W/03 (Simson/ Suhl) regular Pioneer M.71... These M.71's had a long life! And I guess the Cadet versions also longer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 March , 2014 Share Posted 4 March , 2014 Hey SS, have you seen the dead ringer for your one viewable here - http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/mauser-1871-bayonet-clemen-jung-136479025 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 4 March , 2014 Author Share Posted 4 March , 2014 SS, any chance of the width of the blade of yours - to see if it is a cadet issue or not? Also any chance of a photo of that mark? The only one I know of that is pre WWII is the name in an arc over Solingen as here on a W/76, marked 37.R.R.10.88 and so 'regular' service issue. That other Prussian issue example of the SG71 that you posted (made by Clemen & Jung) is actually marked to the the 37th Reserve Infanterie Regiment, Rekruten Depot (used in the training of recruits) So I guess you could say that particular example was a "cadet version" because some of those new recruits may have previously been cadets from a military school. However a SG71 is always a SG71. And my German bayonet reference has Clemen & Jung only making these for a single year (1875) so it would appear entirely appropriate that they show the Prussian acceptance marks dated 1876. And did somebody once buy a bayonet on ebay.? OMG! OMG! (Shock, horror and perish the thought) Actually these days it is probably the best way to acquire the scarcer bayonets (especially with a favourable exchange rate.!) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 March , 2014 Share Posted 5 March , 2014 ... (Is) actually marked to the 37th Reserve Infanterie Regiment, Rekruten Depot ... And did somebody once buy a bayonet on ebay.... Actually these days it is probably the best way to acquire the scarcer bayonets (especially with a favourable exchange rate.!) 1) But as I understand it, R.R is only used to denote a 'Reserve Rekruten' depot issue after 1909? Before then it certainly would have indicated a Reserve Regiment? Happy to be corrected if I am wrong - but as this is an 1871, then I thought this would be a pre-1909 marking... More to the point, though, I was also under the impression that the way to distinguish between the two is the number sequence after the letters... That is to say, that something like this mark, 37.R.R.10.88, gives you regiment number; type of regiment/unit; company number; and weapon number, but a recruiting depot used a sequence such as 37.R.R 88, so no company number. I could very well be wrong as I only have my notes to go by... And the usual exceptions that test the rule apply... 2) I thought it was the same one, but your OP was dated March and this 'pair' to yours was advertised in June... Or so I thought, and now realise that the date on it was given the Yankee way, with month before day before year... BTW, I certainly have no problems getting things on eee-bye-gum-bay - except that I can't, as the import of such things as our pointed friends into Turkey is strenglich verboten! There is a local version of that service which I do use, though, and I get the odd piece I need from there if it fills a gap or is in better condition than what I have, but still enjoy the hunt at the monthly Antika Pazari - which last Sunday had no less than 5 Gras and four Lebels, and two of the 1935' shortened versions of Ottoman bayonets - both surprisingly enough without ASFA marks and NO attempt to remove the Osmanli Tugra... I was tempted, but not really so, as they wanted the equivalent of GBP120 for the scabbardless one, and GBP 300 for the scabbarded one. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 5 March , 2014 Share Posted 5 March , 2014 ... So I guess you could say that particular example was a "cadet version" Forgot to add... No, simply that the majority of M 71's have blade widths of 27-28 cm, and that Clemen and Jung did make a version of a lighter weight and a blade that was narrower, at 25.8 cm. which is claimed by one authority - who has handled lots of these things - to be a 'Cadet' version. Is yours the broad or narrower version? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 March , 2014 Share Posted 6 March , 2014 FYI, Franz, vol. 4., on pp. 302-320, catalogues and describes the "Kadetten-Faschinenmesser M/71", approved in 1871 (p. 302 - although the detailed specifications Franz reproduces pp. 307-320 are dated November 1879!), and he illustrates one with a W/89 spine mark and ricasso marks GEBR.SIMSON one side, and CLEMEN & JUNG/SOLINGEN the other, along with a "G" for 'Gussstahl'. But this looks quite different from yours, with a much wider blade at 31.5 cm, at the ricasso, which I guess is appropriate for a Faschinenmesser. I don't have the Franz volume for the M 71 proper, but I think it was Carter who noted the narrower width (25.8 cm) of the cadet infantry M 71 - must search for that. Interesting to see, though, that this one is a W/89, so that corrects your German bayonet reference book (which one, by the way?), on Clemen & Jung only making M 71's in 1875 - unless, of course, your reference was referring only and specifically to the infantry M 71's, and does not mention these Faschinenmessern. Also, in this case the "G" mark on the blade should indicate that Clemen and Jung were the blade makers, and Simson the finishers. Hope this information is of some use and interest! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 22 October , 2014 Share Posted 22 October , 2014 This one was a Prussian issue in 1876, but sadly there are no regimental markings stamped on it. It is however made by Clemen & Jung another Solingen based cutler, which is fairly unusual as they are probably better known for their prolific sword production. Hi SS, Thought you'd like to know that according to Carter IV, 138-140, Clemen and Jung only made bayonets for Prussia, with 9 recorded examples from 1876 (one m/s), and one from 1875. Not all of these known examples were unit-marked, and those that were made their way to at least three Prussian units... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 October , 2014 Share Posted 31 October , 2014 Here is another rescue example to bring tears to your eyes chaps but at least I can almost make out the markings on the crossguard on this 1 That's an 'ouch', but I would be happy to find one! OK, so what you got... W/73... That could well be a W.R.KIRSCHBAUM as they made them then and from what little I know they were the main makers in 1873 77.R.XX.XX, seems ok for what SS would call 'period', so perhaps (not really my field!) 77/2nd Hannoversche Regiment, our boys until Queen Vic ascended the throne... How about 77.R.10.80 OR 77.R.12.80? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 October , 2014 Share Posted 31 October , 2014 And a follow up on that one Aleck! Forgot that I still have your copy of Carter volume IV, on the Model 71, and will post it to you tomorrow. He lists the following: W/81: Gebr.Weyersburg, 77.R.4.114 W/80: Coppel/Erfurt, 77.R.12.208 W/73: P.D.Luneschloss, 77.R.R.120 W/73L Coulaux & Cie, 77.R.R.205 Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 31 October , 2014 Share Posted 31 October , 2014 And my German bayonet reference has Clemen & Jung only making these for a single year (1875) so it would appear entirely appropriate that they show the Prussian acceptance marks dated 1876. I know I have asked you this before, and you did not reply, but would you please clarify what German reference book you are using? As I indicated in post 37, Clemen and Jung made most of their '71's in 1876... I'd like to know the answer to this one as I want to make certain that I don't buy that book, which is obviously inaccurate on this specific detail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 December , 2014 Share Posted 8 December , 2014 Just sorting through photos and thought this might be of interest: I assume this is an SG 71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2014 Yes Chris, the SG71 mounted on the Gew88. Nice photo, any ideas who they are ... Landsturm of some description.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 December , 2014 Share Posted 8 December , 2014 Maybe - it may also be considerably pre war. I am not sure - here is the entire image The chap at the other end (also with a bayonet) appears to have a medal also. It would seen they are in Saarbruecken although my German is failing me with the second word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2014 They are standing in front of the schleifmühle which translates as 'grinding mill'. The medal (also in back row) appears to be the Centenary Medal which was awarded by the Kaiser in 1897. I'm leaning towards them being Prussian from the looks of the state Kokarde on the Krätzchen. They also appear to be wearing the M1903 Litewka with collar flash of the Landsturmmänner. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 8 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2014 HERE is another similarly dressed group of Landsturm, photographed during the early war period occupation of Belgium. They are all armed with the SG71 fixed to Gew88. Comprising the 8.Korporalschaft, 4.Kompagnie, 1.Landsturm Infanterie Bataillon Bochum and dated 8th September 1914. Courtesy George Wylie's Commission Rifle page. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 December , 2014 Share Posted 8 December , 2014 Maybe - it may also be considerably pre war. I am not sure - here is the entire image Landsturm men were often used as guard detachments in WW1 at 'strategic' targets, e.g. railway stations, and the like, and given the location of Saarbrucken, I guess that is what they are doing in Chris' photograph. So, as they have Gew.88, I would also hazard a guess that it is war time. The guy with the medal also has a lanyard which I think is the one given to marksmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wigwhammer Posted 8 December , 2014 Share Posted 8 December , 2014 I think Trajan is probably spot-on there - and Schleifmühle certainly translates as grinding mill - but I believe the picture in Post 43 to be in front of the railway station Saarbrücken-Schleifmühle - 1,7 km from Saarbrücken main station (Hauptbahnhof) on the Fischbachtal line to Neunkirchen. Cheers Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 December , 2014 Share Posted 8 December , 2014 I think Trajan is probably spot-on there - and Schleifmühle certainly translates as grinding mill - but I believe the picture in Post 43 to be in front of the railway station Saarbrücken-Schleifmühle - 1,7 km from Saarbrücken main station (Hauptbahnhof) on the Fischbachtal line to Neunkirchen. Cheers Colin Thanks all - that makes sense. And this would explain the (differently) uniformed man peaking out of the doorway behind the group - station master or other railway employee? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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