Muerrisch Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 You will have to excuse my ignorance: I don't know, and, now that a clearer image is unavailable, never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 You will have to excuse my ignorance: I don't know, and, now that a clearer image is unavailable, never will. Grumpy, he is now referring to the shoulder title of the man in India Summer Whites. Interesting that there appears to be a contrasting edging to the pagri on the FS helmet reminiscent of that worn by the Northumberland Fusiliers. I wonder what Graham will make of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 Wearing my flame-proof overalls... The jacket looks like a normal British No1 jacket or patrol jacket, and such rigid shoulder boards have been in common usage in the British Army for decades. They are detachable, and used in place of gilt items when not in full ceremonial. Not these days sure about the dress regulations, but my own dress uniform from my own regiment has both gilt and plain shoulder boards. We used to wear the plain shoulder boards at mess functions and other second-tier social events when full No1 ceremonial dress was not required, usually wearing a sashbelt outdoors in place of a gilt cross-belt. My own boards are the same colour as my patrol jacket, but I've seen Yeomanry types and Cavalry wearing coloured boards in place of chain mail. Commenting/guessing purely as a soldier - and not a uniform historian - my immediate impression would be that the gent is a Warrant Officer in a Hussar regiment (I'm guessing the boards are crimson or maroon). Hence he is wearing officers' undress shoulder boards without rank, and probably has a WO1 badge out of sight on his lower sleeve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 Just in case Pooter can get the photograph back - seeing there's been so much effort (not just opinion) put into his enquiry - let's start a new thread for the new man. This has been utterly frustrating. Nobody's fault. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 20 March , 2011 Share Posted 20 March , 2011 Agreed, there's been a lot of sound opinion in here, it would be a shame to let this one go without further effort. I suspect the thought behind the comment 'thought to be British or Canadian' in the OP comes from the collar dogs and their likeness to similar British/Commonwealth insignia and since we may not see any further in that direction - what's the relationship between the photograph and it's owner? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 22 April , 2011 Share Posted 22 April , 2011 Possible similarities here? Australian infantry (militia) 1908. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 22 April , 2011 Share Posted 22 April , 2011 RMC Duntroon pre war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 6 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 June , 2011 An update on this thread which led to a lot of work and replies. My friend went to the National Army Museum in Chelsea today. They thought that the badge was of 1st King’s Dragoon Guards (a cavalry regiment) and that it was the No. 2 dress (walking out) uniform. He referred to it as a swanky uniform, blue tunic and blue trousers with red stripe. Certainly goes with the rather fine moustache! It’s certainly a close match but not sure it is the right one. My friend thinks the photo is of a relative called John Scarborough Raynor who married in 1899 and whose youngest child was born in 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 June , 2011 Share Posted 7 June , 2011 An update on this thread which led to a lot of work and replies. My friend went to the National Army Museum in Chelsea today. They thought that the badge was of 1st King's Dragoon Guards (a cavalry regiment) and that it was the No. 2 dress (walking out) uniform. He referred to it as a swanky uniform, blue tunic and blue trousers with red stripe. Certainly goes with the rather fine moustache! It's certainly a close match but not sure it is the right one. My friend thinks the photo is of a relative called John Scarborough Raynor who married in 1899 and whose youngest child was born in 1915. The walking out dress to which you refer had chain mail shoulder pieces and not the shoulder boards in your photograph. The collar badge is also nothing like the KDGs. I would suggest you refer to the regimental museum in Cardiff castle (http://www.qdg.org.u...Uniforms-57.php) but here are some general points about the KDG's uniform: In 1876 patrol jackets replaced the stable jackets for a short time, but the following year there was a reversion to the stable jacket. Officers' badges of rank were transferred to the shoulder cords, instead of being worn on the collar. In addition, for officers' tunics, the size of the 'Austrian' knot on the sleeves indicated rank, field officers having a triple knot measuring eleven inches from the bottom of the cuff, captains a double knot of nine inches, and subalterns a single knot of seven inches' depth. Throughout the late Victorian period undress uniform remained a blue frock coat with regimental patterns of braiding on the breast and sleeves. With this was worn the 'pill box' forage cap of blue cloth, with a gold regimental pattern lace band for officers, and for the men yellow cloth for the KDG. With minor changes in detail, full-dress uniform remained the same for the KDG up to amalgamation in 1959. The appointment of the Austrian Emperor, Franz Joseph, as colonel in chief of the KDG led to his conferring in 1898 the use of the Austrian Habsburg double-headed eagle as the regimental cap badge. The badge continued in use until 1915 and then (minus scrolls) was adopted again between the wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 June , 2011 Share Posted 7 June , 2011 shoulder chains - on which rank was added for officers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 7 June , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 June , 2011 Thanks for taking the trouble to reply, looks like we're back to square one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 7 June , 2011 Share Posted 7 June , 2011 Thanks for taking the trouble to reply, looks like we're back to square one. The original was clearly a good print from a glass plate. Examination through a magnifier of the shoulder board, its unusual title, and the collar badges, will reveal a great deal. The best magnifiers for this purpose are x20 folding types, as used by stamp collectors. I have used these to scrutinise WW1 post cards and the degree of detail that they reveal is staggering. Even with a copy of the original you should be able to see a great deal going by the quality of your original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 27 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2012 An update on this thread which involved a lot of people in a lot of work; my friend tells me that she took the photograph to a military expert at the Who Do You Think You Are? Show at Olympia yesterday. He said it was not British but could be South African, a search has resulted in the Cape Mounted Police being identified as a possibility especially in view of the images of their badge when you do a Google search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 February , 2012 Share Posted 27 February , 2012 An update on this thread which involved a lot of people in a lot of work; my friend tells me that she took the photograph to a military expert at the Who Do You Think You Are? Show at Olympia yesterday. He said it was not British but could be South African, a search has resulted in the Cape Mounted Police being identified as a possibility especially in view of the images of their badge when you do a Google search. They certainly look very similar pooter. It will be interesting to see what others think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 14 May , 2012 Share Posted 14 May , 2012 Hello again, just picked up a copy of WDYTYA and there was the photo that started this thread! Guess it must be your friend that sent it in. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 14 May , 2012 Share Posted 14 May , 2012 I seem to remember some one suggesting South African a while ago . . . Lucky Guess I think Anyway I came across this if it helps "In 1904 the Cape Police (founded in 1882) which were divided into three Districts became one Police Force the Cape Mounted Police. Cape Police Districts Pre 1904 District 1 HQ King Williams Town (Eastern Cape) District 2 HQ Kimberley (Griqualand West) District 1 HQ Cape Town (Western Cape) Cape Mounted Police HQ was Cape Town. The Cape Mounted Rifles were a seperate Force and had started off as the Frontier Armed and Mounted Police in 1855 and were renamed Cape Mounted Rifles (Colonial) in 1878. They are not to be mistaken with an earlier Imperial Military Unit also called the Cape Mounted Rifles. The Natal Mounted Police (NMP) were founded in 1874 and were based on the (FAMP/CMR) by their founder Col Dartnell who spent some time with the FAMP/CMR to get ideas. The NMP were renamed the Natal Police in 1894 when all Police Forces and Jails in Natal Colony were amalgamated into one Force the Natal Police under Dartnells command. In 1913 1 April the South African Mounted Rifles were founded under the Union Defence Act. They were a military unit who in peace time would police the rural areas (inhabited by blacks mainly), also on 1 April 1913 the South African Police were founded under the Union Police Act, they were to be a police force and in war time to be conscripred into the military. Generally speaking the SAMR were mostly the old Mounted Police units from the pre 1913 units Natal Police, CMP, CMR and Transvaal Police. The SAP were mainly the foot units as their main task was the urban areas. By 1927 the SAMR were disbanded and the SAP had absorbed most of their members and duties. " Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavster1980 Posted 14 May , 2012 Share Posted 14 May , 2012 Is this any clearer? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 May , 2012 Share Posted 15 May , 2012 (edited) On 14/05/2012 at 20:33, Pavster1980 said: Is this any clearer? Rich Much clearer Rich, and for the first time I can see that the shoulder boards appear to be in a different colour to the tunic. Similar slip on shoulder straps have been used on British uniforms (and have recently undergone a resurgence for No1 Dress to make it easier to change unit distinctions), but they are generally softer and although with plenty of body (they are constructed of buckram overlaid with barathea cloth), nothing like so stiff as those worn by the South African Policeman in the photo. Edited 3 September , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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