tocemma Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 I don't doubt that different shoulder straps were tinkered with, but that is not my point. NONE were ever adopted, of that I am certain. All of the shoulder straps shown in my link post were adopted, and all can be seen in various original period photographs....A careful reading of the post gives the relevant pattern numbers. See Joe Sweeney's reply. Once again could I ask the originator of the thread to upload a hi res image of both the shoulder straps and the collar badge so we can attempt a proper identification. There is way too much in the way of noise and digital artifacts on the two enlargements that have been done to draw any firm conclusions. Crown, coronet, Russian, Belgian, South African, Mucanese, Girl Guides etc etc etc Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Tocemma; noted your earlier posts with interest. The 13th Hussars badge could be adjusted to fit possibilities but the Crown would have ended up squint as well, which it's not. However, was there an original badge for the Norfolk Hussars which we've overlooked. I believe that they were raised by Edward VII himself and I still wonder about the flowery script ("ER"?) on the shoulder boards. The proliferation of petit-monarchies does muddy the waters as I tend to subscribe to the pre-War thinking. I hope the Mods won't close this. It really is an interesting thread. Frogsmile: Thank you for the excellent post of the blues. The tunic is very, very similar - but I also take your points about the rest of it. I apologise for snapping at you earlier. Cheers all, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tocemma Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Hi Anthony, I wasn't really trying to make the badge fit, but was just showing that it looked similar. We're a bit stuck at this point, as without a clear image of the original photo this could go round in circles forever. Personally I'm not ruling anything out. I've been collecting militaria, mainly WW1 but sometimes late Victorian and Edwardian for 40+ years, to know that there were some very strange items worn at the time. Categorical statements based on the poor images we have so far are therefore very misleading. The quality of the photo (no fault of the thread starter of course) has led us up the garden path here several times. What looks like a badge backing for instance seems to me to be pixelation caused by an enlargement of an already lo res photo. I can't see how this can be resolved without a clear look at both the collar badges, or as clear as can be obtained, and whatever is on the end of the shoulder straps. Anything else is pointless, and it seems increasingly irritable, speculation. Tocemma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 Agreed, Tocemma. I blew up the original post image and will swear that the initials "SWM" are underneath the Crown and badge . Cheers, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 11 March , 2011 Share Posted 11 March , 2011 All of the shoulder straps shown in my link post were adopted, and all can be seen in various original period photographs....A careful reading of the post gives the relevant pattern numbers. See Joe Sweeney's reply. Once again could I ask the originator of the thread to upload a hi res image of both the shoulder straps and the collar badge so we can attempt a proper identification. There is way too much in the way of noise and digital artifacts on the two enlargements that have been done to draw any firm conclusions. Crown, coronet, Russian, Belgian, South African, Mucanese, Girl Guides etc etc etc Tocemma This seems to be getting awfully personal and I don't really understand why. Yes, I know that there were sealed patterns for the shoulder straps that you showed and I read what Joe said with interest. All the straps were from between 1901 and 1904 when apart from being at war (Boer), the army was experimenting with the newly introduced SD. By 'never adopted' I mean not brought into general use, which I would have thought was pretty clear. A period between 1901 and 1904 would not have allowed the straps you showed to travel far outside of Aldershot given the size of the empire and contemporary lines of communication, and the limited number of both images showing the straps and examples of them in regimental museums, pretty much bears that out. The use of slip on, semi-stiffened straps, is long-standing and has only recently been readopted for No1 Dress Blues, but there has never been any use of wide and rigid shoulder 'boards' of what one might call Slavic type and that is what I have consistently referred to. We are in danger of obfuscating here and taking our eyes off the ball given the clear line of enquiry from the photo. Instead of arguing about irrelevant SD shoulder straps I was focusing on the cut and style of the tailored uniform shown, its collar badges, buttons and lack of British style rank, which together with un-British shoulder boards, pretty much nullifies speculation about 13th Hussars, or any other British unit as far as I am concerned. In any case, cavalry and yeomanry were not only wearing badges of rank on the universal (as opposed to regimental) patrol jacket shoulder straps in the late 1890s (and beyond), but also had a layer of chain mail overlaid between. Far from 'making misleading statements based on poor quality images', I have merely used my knowledge of British uniforms to, by a process of elimination, rule out what is quite clearly (to me and others) any remaining suggestion that this might be a British uniform. British officers uniforms were made up by tailors to patterns approved by the war office and 'Cutters Practical Guides' (pattern books) were used to standardise construction. Scrutiny of these bears out that British uniforms did not have shoulder straps of the design shown in the photo that commenced this thread (http://www.costumes....uttersguide.htm) Part 13 refers. Finally, and with uncanny irony, the collar badge of the Princess of Wales' (South Yorkshire) Regiment that was held up as an example of 'Britishness' and similar to the subject photo bears a Danish (foreign) coronet and not a British crown, as illustrated in my earlier post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 PoW (SY) Regt Collar with Danish (Princess Alexandra's) Coronet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 What is the 'danger' and problem with people having guesses? Most of us have differing opinions and nobody has much of a clue as to what it really is anyway! Lighten up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 Finally, and with uncanny irony, the collar badge of the Princess of Wales (South Yorkshire) Regiment that was held up as an example similar to the subject photo bears a Danish (foreign) coronet and not a British crown, as illustrated in my earlier post. Sorry, Frogsmile, can you clarify the sentence quoted above? Was the "example" you refer to not a PoW (SY) badge? Was it a Danish badge - or just a Danish Crown? Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 Sorry, Frogsmile, can you clarify the sentence quoted above? Was the "example" you refer to not a PoW (SY) badge? Was it a Danish badge - or just a Danish Crown? Antony It's a British badge with a Danish Coronet (as worn by a princess), not Crown. I was making the tongue in cheek point that it was being held up as an example of Britishness when ironically it has a foreign piece of regalia surmounting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 Thank you for that, Frogsmile. Very interesting. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Crowns and Coronet design - beyond recognising Imperial cup-cakes . Given the provenance of our Royal lineage, I suppose it's not surprising that these cross-national designs came into being. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 12 March , 2011 Share Posted 12 March , 2011 What is the 'danger' and problem with people having guesses? Most of us have differing opinions and nobody has much of a clue as to what it really is anyway! Lighten up! You are spot on Blackblue and if you look back at my posts you will see that I have made a few guesses myself. As you say, no danger in that, I was referring to the fact that we were starting to focus away from the photo and the uniform in it and on to SD shoulder straps. It was not me who made pointed comments about "misleading statements", or "speculation" when in fact I was simply ruling out Britishness by what is known, rather than what is not known. Grumpy made a similar point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 No sweat FROGSMILE. I don't think we can unequivocally say that anything is known about this uniform. All I simply meant was that one person's guess seems to be as good as any other at this stage as we don't seem to be hitting the mark. There have been those who have said its definitely not British....I don't think we can say that yet. Regardless of where the uniform is from what we all agree is that it has its oddities. I still think the collars are surmounted by your usual UK Kings Crown. The uniform looks like patrol blues. The shoulder boards are actually the same shape they use in the Australian Army today, but not the Russian Imperial Army...they look more Imperial German shape perhaps. The badges on them are anyones guess...I don't think they are clear enough for anyone to say what they actually are. A better scan as has been suggested may assist, but I think the only way to confirm is to come up with photos of the same sort of uniform! For the past seven years I have actually always assumed that GRUMPY and you are the same person! Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 I note the photo was apparently taken at Brixton. Could it be HM Prisons? What other organisations may have been in the Brixton area? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 No sweat FROGSMILE. I don't think we can unequivocally say that anything is known about this uniform. All I simply meant was that one person's guess seems to be as good as any other at this stage as we don't seem to be hitting the mark. There have been those who have said its definitely not British....I don't think we can say that yet. Regardless of where the uniform is from what we all agree is that it has its oddities. I still think the collars are surmounted by your usual UK Kings Crown. The uniform looks like patrol blues. The shoulder boards are actually the same shape they use in the Australian Army today, but not the Russian Imperial Army...they look more Imperial German shape perhaps. The badges on them are anyones guess...I don't think they are clear enough for anyone to say what they actually are. A better scan as has been suggested may assist, but I think the only way to confirm is to come up with photos of the same sort of uniform! For the past seven years I have actually always assumed that GRUMPY and you are the same person! Rgds Tim D I was Grumpy ere Frogsmile was. I expect we will both be mildly offended by the error! Just concentrate on hanging on ..... it must be difficult living upside down all those years ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 . British officers uniforms were made up by tailors to patterns approved by the war office and 'Cutters Practical Guides' (pattern books) were used to standardise construction. Scrutiny of these bears out that British uniforms did not have shoulder straps of the design shown in the photo that commenced this thread (http://www.costumes....uttersguide.htm) Part 13 refers. FROGSMILE, I see the relevant shoulder strap pages are not scanned at your link? Can you clarify? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 I was Grumpy ere Frogsmile was. I expect we will both be mildly offended by the error! Just concentrate on hanging on ..... it must be difficult living upside down all those years ........ Lived a few places actually. I doubt for as many as you have old boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 FROGSMILE, I see the relevant shoulder strap pages are not scanned at your link? Can you clarify? Rgds Tim D My reference was to Part 13 at the link with no special focus on shoulder straps, just all the officer uniforms of that period. The regulations had not changed to a significant degree between 1894 and 1900 when the cutters guide on military uniforms was (almost certainly) published, the main difference was the introduction of officers SD. If you open the link of Part 13 you will see there are 7 pages that you may peruse at your leisure. The relevant item is the universal patrol jacket which is adjacent to the military frock for Foot Guards on page 5. The general 'style' of blue patrols is not unique to the British service and a buttoned tunic with 4 patch pockets became an increasingly common design from the 1890s on. You seem to have what I can only describe as a blissful disregard for the absence of rank on the shoulder straps which all officers British military tunics of that style would have had, with the cavalry adding a chain mail shoulder piece. Perhaps you think he has the look of a SNCO? And that is before you even consider the extreme width and rigidity of the boards at the shoulder seam, which is totally not a British design. Crowns and crowned insignia were 10 a penny in the Europe of that time, so the collar badges are less significant. I am going to give up on convincing you about the shoulder boards being not British, it's starting to get very boring. My problem is that I have spent my entire life, on a day-to-day basis, in and around British uniforms. For the most part contemporary of course, but also from the last 2 centuries and, as well as attuning my eyes to features of British uniform, it has perhaps left me impatient with others who get pleasure from endlessly arguing the toss about things that to me are glaringly obvious. You believe what you wish. As you say, we are unlikely to know what uniform it is for certain, not least I would suggest, because the likelihood of finding one in a British museum collection is extremely minute. Brixton was quite a well-to-do area at the turn of the 20th Century and much belies it's later image as a centre of West Indian culture. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is quite feasible that the photo is of a foreign, military attache, taken in a studio close to where he had his residence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 Many people get impatient when others don't see their point when its glaringly obvious. I guess thats the blissful danger of a forum environment and rigidity of some. As you say this is an undated privately published 'cutters guide'...so its hardly evidence of regulations and every single uniform (Army or otherwise) that was authorised or trialled in Britain around this time. I have perused the cutters guide (a few scanned pages) as you suggest and it doesn't seem to tell us much at all. I accept that you haven't seen something like this before....unfortunately one persons opinion regards origin on a public forum means very little to me regardless of whether you are the Army's Official Tailor...or you are not. This said I would be interested to see the shoulder straps pages. I haven't seen any firm evidence that the uniform, collars and the shoulder boards are not 'British' or Commonwealth (whether Army or not) and that this man is not British. As I have said I believe the collars have a Kings Crown. I have never said that it is British Army....it could be a plethora of different things...but from what I see here the only thing that does appear clear to me regards origin is the shape of the crowns on the collars. I haven't seen anything alternate put up that is even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 Many people get impatient when others don't see their point when its glaringly obvious. I guess thats the blissful danger of a forum environment and rigidity of some. As you say this is an undated privately published 'cutters guide'...so its hardly evidence of regulations and every single uniform (Army or otherwise) that was authorised or trialled in Britain around this time. I have perused the cutters guide (a few scanned pages) as you suggest and it doesn't seem to tell us much at all. I accept that you haven't seen something like this before....unfortunately one persons opinion regards origin on a public forum means very little to me regardless of whether you are the Army's Official Tailor...or you are not. This said I would be interested to see the shoulder straps pages. I haven't seen any firm evidence that the uniform, collars and the shoulder boards are not 'British' or Commonwealth (whether Army or not) and that this man is not British. As I have said I believe the collars have a Kings Crown. I have never said that it is British Army....it could be a plethora of different things...but from what I see here the only thing that does appear clear to me regards origin is the shape of the crowns on the collars. I haven't seen anything alternate put up that is even close. The cutters guide concerned is based directly on the war office publication 'Dress Regulations for Officers of the Army 1900' ( I know this because I have said regulations and because of the omission of the Irish Guards (not yet formed) and the introduction of SD). It was drawn up by Mr W D Vincent, a man who made his fortune from such guides that, in the case of military uniforms, became the accepted guide for military tailors in cutting cloth and constructing military garments and it accordingly covers all authorised uniforms, as you would discover if you read it properly. As for the rest of what you have said, you have merely repeated yourself, ad nauseam, and I have no further comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 13 March , 2011 Share Posted 13 March , 2011 He does make the point that he has tried to be exhaustive...but that the publication may not be. The problem with saying unequivocally that the photo is not British military is that we can't say the publication is exhaustive and don't even know the photo's date nor that of the publication! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 Does this shoulder insignia look similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 No. But a minimum 16-year service man in India Pattern Summer Whites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 It's a shame that no better images have arrived as it clearly appears nobody is none the wiser, several posters can say what it is not and I as a sometimes fumbling amature bow to your extensive knowledge. So please Pooter lets see what that collar dog really is. Do the couple in the photo belong to the clothes they are wearing? What are the possiblities of this photo being a 'mock up' or actors/cast from a nearby stage? I'm not suggesting anything but less the crown there are similarities with this belt pouch from a certain Hussar Rgt and the shoulder title....I shan't mention them again Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 15 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 15 March , 2011 I am afraid I have had no luck getting a better scan of the uniform as the photograph has been returned by my friend to an elderly relative without a computer who lives a distance away from her. Thank you again for all the efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 15 March , 2011 Share Posted 15 March , 2011 No. But a minimum 16-year service man in India Pattern Summer Whites. Excuse my ignorance. I was able to deduce the rest....but as per my original what is the shoulder insignia this man is wearing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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