Wardog Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 Had a reply from British Military Badge Forum "Cossack". Andy is very in the know with things Imperial Russian. Doesn't help to ID the picture but if he says its not of Russians then odds on he is right. He will be joining the forum soon. Apart from the shoulder boards, the tunic looks similar to a British one. Any more ideas? Hi Paul, It is definitely NOT Imperial Russian, firstly the boards are not Russian style at all- completely the wrong shape, secondly the Russian Army didn't wear collar insignia like this - they look more like British crowns anyway & nothing at all like Tsarist ones. Also the ribbon is not an Imperial Russian one & they didn't wear them in this manner until very late WWI into the Civil War & finally the guy doesn't look even vaguely of Russian ethniticity! Quite amusing how these things go off on a tangent from one vague suggestion! I'm not a member of that forum so thought it easier to reply to you here - hope all is well with you mate. regards....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 Russian. Crown is more like a cup-cake. Queen's Crown more like a heart; King's had straighter edges that didn't "balloon". Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 Had a reply from British Military Badge Forum "Cossack". Andy is very in the know with things Imperial Russian. Doesn't help to ID the picture but if he says its not of Russians then odds on he is right. He will be joining the forum soon. Apart from the shoulder boards, the tunic looks similar to a British one. Any more ideas? Hi Paul, It is definitely NOT Imperial Russian, firstly the boards are not Russian style at all- completely the wrong shape, secondly the Russian Army didn't wear collar insignia like this - they look more like British crowns anyway & nothing at all like Tsarist ones. Also the ribbon is not an Imperial Russian one & they didn't wear them in this manner until very late WWI into the Civil War & finally the guy doesn't look even vaguely of Russian ethniticity! Quite amusing how these things go off on a tangent from one vague suggestion! I'm not a member of that forum so thought it easier to reply to you here - hope all is well with you mate. regards....Andy My suggestion was not in any way "vague", but I used the word "perhaps" because I was not able to make a positive ID. If he is not Russian then I would suggest some other Slavic/Central European army who wore rigid shoulder boards. As it happens I am a member of the badge forum and have been for a long time, but what knowledge I have relates to the British Army and, on that basis, I have never seen rigid shoulder boards of that style, width etc, worn by a British unit, Regular or Territorial, Cavalry, Infantry, or Services. I do not agree that the collar badge shown bears either a Imperial, Victorian, or St Edwards crown, nor am I 100% confident that it is Russian, although some of the badges on the link that I posted do look similar. Perhaps we will never know, but right or wrong as I may be, I currently feel just as confident that he is not British as you appear to be that he is not Russian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 While I realise that Poles and Cossaks may have old differences , I would respectfully suggest that Cossack bases a very firm opinion on very slender, even vague, "evidence". "Russian ethnicity" is not a description of which I am vaguely familiar and I would happily ask anyone to suggest that I appear to be of "Polish ethnicity". As posted above, I would respectfully disagree that the crowns don't look Russian. I think they do. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 Andy asked me to post his thoughts as he is having the common problems of a new member. As it was an email to me it may sound a bit blunt, but I did not feel I should edit it. I'm sure he will be able to give further Imperial Russian comment in the future. No offence ment I'm sure. Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 Blunt? Many people are here. The thread was steering very much towards Russian....the references were more than 'vague'. Are you saying they do look Russian in your last Antony? I agree with your earlier post. The collars are the shape of British King's Crown more so than any other I can find. Still can't find anything with similar in shoulder boards though. Could he perhaps be something other than military...or from one of the colonies etc.? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 I think so, Tim, but it's only my opinion based on a close examination largely of the left-hand (his right) collar crown. I'm not sure if cup-cakes are a common confectionery up past the Gold Coast but that's all I can think of to describe the way the Russian crown seems to "spill" over the edges of its frame. The British crowns don't "expand" as quickly from the base and the infill of the velvet always appears flat or curved upwards along the base rather than curved on the inside edge. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mike.comerford/ORDNANCE/28.htm Wardog: I should have put a smiley in (in fact I will do). Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 4 March , 2011 Share Posted 4 March , 2011 OK Antony Or should I call you cup cake?!! Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 5 March , 2011 Share Posted 5 March , 2011 Jeez, Paul, with a face like that you can call me anything you want . Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wardog Posted 5 March , 2011 Share Posted 5 March , 2011 I do look a bit rough without a shave! Back to Andy's opinion though, he has been back in touch with me and would like it made clear that he had no intention to cause any possible upset, just wanted to get his thoughts quickly accross to me while the thread was still active. I'll encourage him to contribute when he is able and feeling up to it as he does know his field well through family conections and interest. Totaly outside my personal knowledge though! Regards, Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 6 March , 2011 Share Posted 6 March , 2011 Greetings All, I am here at last!! As stated before it was a quick mail to Paul to get the relevant facts over. My Imperial Russian knowledge comes from my Father's family actually being from there only leaving with the White Army at the end of the Civil War - also having a fairly decent collection of original uniforms & photographs gives me a fair bit of advantage too! I was hoping the info I gave would help the person who posted the photo look at other options rather than the 'Russian' one which to me it clearly isn't. I hope I can be of help in future & look forward to being on this forum. Regards....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 6 March , 2011 Share Posted 6 March , 2011 I was wondering if we could focus on the constructive to help the OP. Andy; I take it that your comment that the boards are "completely the wrong shape" applies to the apparent fact that these boards are wider at the shoulder joint than at the neck. If that is so, then I would tend to agree with you as the only Russian shoulder-boards I've seen of that vintage had parallel sides. However, Russia used several styles of shoulder-boards at the neck, including those that didn't have button holes. Can you comment on that and on the script or insignia on the boards? At first glance, it looks to the Western eye like Cyrillic script. However, my research so far shows nothing with a bulging left curve like a Latin "E". Can you comment? Certainly, no British regiment to my knowledge used such an apparently "flowery" script. What other nations used Cyrillic script? As to the collar "dogs", I know of no British regiment that used double-dogs (crown and regimental insignia). Again, I'm open to education and only want to stimulate discussion for the benefit of all. So, if not British, what? Lastly, my personal "feel" is that collar is slightly too high for a British regiment. Informed argument welcome. Cheers, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 6 March , 2011 Share Posted 6 March , 2011 I was wondering if we could focus on the constructive to help the OP. Andy; I take it that your comment that the boards are "completely the wrong shape" applies to the apparent fact that these boards are wider at the shoulder joint than at the neck. If that is so, then I would tend to agree with you as the only Russian shoulder-boards I've seen of that vintage had parallel sides. However, Russia used several styles of shoulder-boards at the neck, including those that didn't have button holes. Can you comment on that and on the script or insignia on the boards? At first glance, it looks to the Western eye like Cyrillic script. However, my research so far shows nothing with a bulging left curve like a Latin "E". Can you comment? Certainly, no British regiment to my knowledge used such an apparently "flowery" script. What other nations used Cyrillic script? As to the collar "dogs", I know of no British regiment that used double-dogs (crown and regimental insignia). Again, I'm open to education and only want to stimulate discussion for the benefit of all. So, if not British, what? Lastly, my personal "feel" is that collar is slightly too high for a British regiment. Informed argument welcome. Cheers, Antony Well put Antony, I concur with all that you have said. It is also notable that the collar badge appears (to my eyes anyway) to be backed by some kind of cloth outline with perhaps a crimped edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 6 March , 2011 Share Posted 6 March , 2011 Hi Antony, Other ranks boards for Imperial Russia veer off at an angle at the top to meet in a point, officers ones then have a flattened top edge cutting off the point - if you do a google image search on imperial russian pogoni or shoulder-boards I'm something will be there to show what I mean. At to the insignia on it, I cant make it out, it needs scanning at a higher resolution if possible but it may not even be a letter but an emblem. Other nations using Cyrillic scripts in the period were the Serbs, Montenegrans, Bulgarians. Someone else threw a suggestion of a British regiment in so maybe that needs checking first, I would say it is worth publishing the collar image on the British Badge Forum in their 'unknowns' section to see what people come up with there as they are very knowledgeable like that. The collar emblem would probably solve the puzzle quicker than the boards. The tunic reminds me of the 'French' that was very popular in WWI, even with the high collar but can't be sure on that. Hopefully somewhere along the line someone will know what exactly it is, my main forte is Imperial Russian which is why Paul asked me originally so unfortunately I was better equipped to what it was NOT, rather than what it IS best regards.....Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 March , 2011 Share Posted 6 March , 2011 what it is not, is British. what it is, is not British. British it is not. I do British. British I do. Russian I do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Does anyone have Men-At-Arms 'Armies in the Balkans 1914-1918'? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Is the cypher on the shoulder boards an "ER" from the reign of Edward VII? Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony paley Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 I think the earlier post was a good shout, 13th Hussars, I have a restrike example of 13th Hussars that looks very similar badge. In use around 1900. Tony P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 7 March , 2011 Share Posted 7 March , 2011 Tony, can you post a pic of that. In all honesty, I can't see collar dogs or shoulder-boards like that on any picture of 13th Hussars I've been able to turn up - but I'd be delighted if you could solve this (as I'm sure would be the OP). Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooter Posted 8 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Continued thanks for all the efforts on this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalky179 Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 This might be a silly question, but has anyone researched police uniforms from the early 1900s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 'tis not a silly question. Hmmmm . . . . ? Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Does this look similar? It does to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Excellent! Collar's lower but different dress. Which regiment? Cheers, Antony EDIT: Sorry, spoke too soon (still excellent find tho'). Similar style but your post seems to have crossed rifles below the Crown whereas the OP has a more solid shape. No? We might be getting very close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cossack Wolf Posted 8 March , 2011 Share Posted 8 March , 2011 Hi Antony, Yep I know it is a different regiment but it is a BRITISH one that the pic I posted is taken from hence me saying 'similar . Just thought I would post it to show that we would be possibly better off checking British & Commonwealth units of the period even though we have had a statement of 'British it is not'. Also the full pic of the guy I posted has boards with an insignia on it very similar to the one that started this discussion. I am awaiting further info on hopefully identifying the unit of the pic in question but add to it the fact that the photo is taken in the UK would give more credibility to the British supposition. The pic I posted is The Princess of Wales's Own Yorkshire Regiment. It seems you & I are taking the most interest in helping to resolve this one ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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