godden18 Posted 26 February , 2011 Share Posted 26 February , 2011 scan0002.pdfscan0002.pdfscan0002.pdf scan0002.pdfscan0002.pdfscan0002.pdfscan0002.pdfscan0002.pdf I hope I have managed to attach a photograph of my great great uncle William Brown. He is reputed to have distinguished himself in WWI but the family has no further details. I realize this is probably asking the impossible, but I wonder if anyone can give me any clues from his uniform - the medal bars on his chest probably won't be clear enough to make any sense of. Of course, the uniform may be nothing to do with his service, but it would be useful to know. This is what I know of William in case it helps. He was born in 1870 in Guilsfield, Montgomeryshire, orphaned by the age of 5, boarded out, went to sea sometime after 1881. He is not in the 1891 census so presumably was at sea. In 1901 he is working in some capacity on the North Shields ferry (he married a local girl). In 1911 he was at the Royal Navy Barracks at Chatham. He was, as far as I know, living in or around North Shields until he died (date unknown but probably 1940s). He seems quite old to be in the war... I'd be very grateful for any suggestions as to what sort of career as a naval man, particularly in WWI, William might have had, and where I might find more information. Juliet New Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Juliet. Looks like the photo failed to attach, for some reason. Did he have a middle name? regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 UNlikely to be RN but, if a merchant seaman, he could well have been RNR, even though 45 when the war started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godden18 Posted 27 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hi, thanks for responding. I've now, I think, added the photo (about a dozen times because the 'add to post' line doesn't disappear once the photo is added so I thought it hadn't worked.). No middle name. As you can imagine, finding a William Brown is no easy task!!! Juliet. Looks like the photo failed to attach, for some reason. Did he have a middle name? regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Could be a Skipper RNR but there are lots of Skippers called William Brown. He has an RNR officer's cap badge. You have a choice of two courses of action to narrow them down: either go to the National Archives and search their RNR Index (not on-line) and then search their filmed copies of RNR records in BT 377; alternatively, send an e-mail to the Fleet Air Arm Musueum, who hold the original Index and all the original records and they will do a search for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hi Juliet, Welcome to the Forum. The medal ribbons appear to be The Distinguished Service Medal(D.S.M.) and possibly a Long Service Medal? not sure about this one but the first is certainly the D.S.M. Hope that this helps, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 "He is reputed to have distinguished himself in WW1". There was a Skipper William Brown RNR [537 WSA] who was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross in recognition of services in minesweeping between 1st April and 31st December 1917, London Gazette 17.4.18, pages 4643/4. It might be him. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Juliet, If you could produce a close-up scan of his medal ribbons? it may be possible to identify the second medal. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 RNR LS & GC?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 "He is reputed to have distinguished himself in WW1". There was a Skipper William Brown RNR [537 WSA] who was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross in recognition of services in minesweeping between 1st April and 31st December 1917, London Gazette 17.4.18, pages 4643/4. It might be him. David. Hi David, The first ribbon has the central stripe so cannot be a DSC--do you think that your details are incorrect ie DSM and not DSC? Apart from the central stripe, the DSC and DSM ribbons are identical. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 RNR LS & GC?? The second ribbon appears to be quite plain--the RNR LS&GC is quite stripey? so can't really say. Bit of a puzzler!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 RNR LS & GC was plain green 1909 - 1941 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hi David, The first ribbon has the central stripe so cannot be a DSC--do you think that your details are incorrect ie DSM and not DSC? Apart from the central stripe, the DSC and DSM ribbons are identical. Robert Hi Robert, This William Brown was definitely awarded the DSC. Skippers were Warrant Officers not ratings so were awarded the DSC, & the man in the photo is wearing an officer's cap badge. The only other possibility is a DSM awarded as a rating before becoming an officer. However, there is another William Brown who was awarded a DSM, Leading Seaman William Brown RNR, ON T.1728, London Gazette 14.7.1916, pages 7065/7. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Strange. Perhaps a LG error because 'T' numbers were for stokers on their second period of enrolment. He may have changed trade to seaman and, during the war, would not have been given a new number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hi Robert, This William Brown was definitely awarded the DSC. Skippers were Warrant Officers not ratings so were awarded the DSC, & the man in the photo is wearing an officer's cap badge. The only other possibility is a DSM awarded as a rating before becoming an officer. However, there is another William Brown who was awarded a DSM, Leading Seaman William Brown RNR, ON T.1728, London Gazette 14.7.1916, pages 7065/7. David. Hi David, I rather think that he must be the L/S William Brown but as I am not too good on Naval matters--I could be wrong? although the ribbon would suggest that I could be right? Possibly he was commissioned or promoted later in the war? I'm afraid that I shall have to leave this for you to decide!! Any ideas ref. the second ribbon? Robert PS What equivalent does L/S have in the army? Corporal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hi David, I rather think that he must be the L/S William Brown but as I am not too good on Naval matters--I could be wrong? although the ribbon would suggest that I could be right? Possibly he was commissioned or promoted later in the war? I'm afraid that I shall have to leave this for you to decide!! Any ideas ref. the second ribbon? Robert PS What equivalent does L/S have in the army? Corporal? Robert, There does look to be a central stripe on the first medal ribbon as on a DSM. As horatio2 says the second ribbon is probably the RNRLSGC. A L/S would be roughly equivalent to a Corporal. horatio2, Agreed, there is something odd about this Official No., with this rating, but here it is. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godden18 Posted 27 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Thanks to EVERYONE who has been so kind as to put their mind to this problem. I will try to blow the image of the ribbons up this week and put them up on the site. Regards Juliet New Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 RNR LS & GC was plain green 1909 - 1941 This should fit the bill then The photo was obviously taken prior to the end of the war, otherwise he would be showing either a WW1 trio or a pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 27 February , 2011 Share Posted 27 February , 2011 Hi Juliet, I wouldn't be at all surprised if, like many other orphans, your Gt.Gt. Uncle started his maritime career as a sea fishing apprentice. That would explain his move to the North East at an early age. Interestingly the 1891 Census release was a great disappointment to many researching Grimsby connections with Fishing Fleet, as the 1891 Ships in Port Census Records for Grimsby couldn’t be found, (they would have included returns from vessels at sea). One lives in hope that they will turn up one day. Of the ten William Brown’s that signed indentures at Grimsby, two are possibles, a long shot perhaps but I’ll look them up on my next visit to the archives. Cheers, Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadsac Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 Juliet, following on from posting by David - here is the award to William Brown that I have. Have been through all the other Officer W. Brown's awarded gongs & he seems the most likely ; BROWN William 537WSA Skipper RNR 84Q087 H.M.T. Laurel 11 Vice Admiral Orkneys & Shetlands Lerwick 17.04.18 Gazetted Minesweeping Operations 01.04.17 - 31.12.17 DSC An experienced minesweeping Skipper, cool, steady, and resourceful, and most conspicuous in the performance of his duties. Sadsac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 28 February , 2011 Share Posted 28 February , 2011 Juliet, following on from posting by David - here is the award to William Brown that I have. Have been through all the other Officer W. Brown's awarded gongs & he seems the most likely ; BROWN William 537WSA Skipper RNR 84Q087 H.M.T. Laurel 11 Vice Admiral Orkneys & Shetlands Lerwick 17.04.18 Gazetted Minesweeping Operations 01.04.17 - 31.12.17 DSC An experienced minesweeping Skipper, cool, steady, and resourceful, and most conspicuous in the performance of his duties. Sadsac Ribbon is DSM not DSC, surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godden18 Posted 2 March , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 March , 2011 Dear All, I had a devil of a time trying, but blowing up the ribbons just sent them out of focus. However, scrutinizing the left-hand side ribbon with a strong magnifying glass against a picture of the DSM ribbon on Wikipedia, I’m sure it’s the same as it has two white bars with a narrow stripe down the middle (the DSC doesn’t have the stripe down the middle, right?). The right-hand ribbon is absolutely plain. There are long-service medals at http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/reserve_royal_navy.htm and there are ghostly diagonal right to left lines on William's medal ribbon which square with the green RNR ribbon shown (if you look very carefully - some weave in the material maybe). I was very grateful for your help as doing my own research I had thought he was the Voluntary Reserve. I wonder if he wasn’t in the navy as a young man and ended up in Shields as it’s a big port and met a girl and settled down. (My husband’s grandfather was Estonian, escaped going into the Tsar’s army, served the UK in the merchant navy in WWI and ended up in Shields too!). Presumably William Brown was in the reserve and was doing some kind of training when he was at Chatham Barracks in 1911. I will follow up the RNR index to try to solve the problem of him being an officer but being awarded the DSM (if I understand, that is a problem). One last question... when you say the photo was taken during the war rather than after because he doesn’t have additional medals, would he have been allowed a big moustache in service? Thanks again for everyone's helpful suggestions Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 3 March , 2011 Share Posted 3 March , 2011 Thanks for getting back to us Juliet. I can't find a William Brown DSM RNR in the December 1918 Navy List [for officers] so the photo might have been taken after the war but before his WW1 campaign medals were issued. The moustache was against regulations which also might indicate that the photo was taken while in uniform but after demobilisation, but having said that I have a postcard of an Engineman RNR with a moustache. The watch strap worn like that would not be allowed in the RN, but I don't know how strictly the RNR kept to dress regulations during WW1. Leading Seaman William Brown DSM RNR was awarded his medal for services with the Auxiliary Patrol from 1st January 1915 to 31st January 1916. David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaJane Posted 3 March , 2011 Share Posted 3 March , 2011 I'm sure I've read somewhere (maybe even on this forum long ago) that full-set regulations were relaxed for RNR intake. But I may be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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