Moriaty Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Lieutenant James Stirling-Stuart, 1st Battalion Scots Guards, died of wounds on 9 November 1914 at L'Ecole de la Bienfaisance, Ypres, he was buried at Haatswell Daads School, Ypres. Does anyone know where Haatswell Daads School was? His grave must have been lost as he is now commemorated on the Menin Gate. Moriaty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Moriaty, While I am racking my brain, I keep on smiling all the time. I have been familiar with my language for the past 65 years, but no matter how hard I try, "Haatswell Daads School" does not really sounds Flemish (Dutch). It even sounds more like ... English (? Where did you find the name ? Was it printed ? Or in handwriting ? I must say though that Haatswell Daads school, with a little (?) bit of iamgination, looks like a cripple anagram of the Flemish name of the school : Weldadigheidsschool. I'll have a look if there was a (later removed) cemetery there. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Hi Moriarty, the CWGC historical info for Bedford Road Cemetery Click might help: ECOLE DE BIENFAISANCE CEMETERY, YPRES, was on the North side of the Poperinghe road, immediately West of the railway, in the grounds of a school (later rebuilt). It was used by Field Ambulances in 1915-1917, and it contained the graves of 133 soldiers from the United Kingdom, three from Canada, three from Australia and one of the British West Indies Regiment NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 M., Ecole de Bienfaisance / Weldadigheidsschool indeed had a cemetery (with 139 or 140 graves, 133 of them British). However, I find no mention in my notes of the period when it was started (already in Nov. 1914 ? no idea), nor of the units. (I have the co-ordinates of the cemetery, west side of what is now Karel Steverlyncklaan, 200 meters from Menin road. The graves later were moved to Bedford House Cemetery, Enclosure N° 2. But this does not solve your problem, I know... Just let me know where you found the mention of the name of the school in Ypres where he was buried. Aurel (Edited : sorry Nigel, I was typing my posting (and doing my 'research') while your posting was already there.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 First I intended to give that 'warning', but then did not. But now rereading Nigels quote ... I have always been puzzled by some confusion between two cemeteries in Ypres. There was the Asylum British Cemetery (280 or 283 graves, if my information is correct : started in Febr. 1915)), which was on the northside of the Poperingseweg (road to Poperinge, outside the built-up area of Ypres). It was (and still is) a psychiatric institution (Heilig Hart). When CWGC says that Ecole de Bienfaisance / Weldadigheidsschool was "northside of the Poperinghe Road", this is certainly wrong. That is where the Asylum was. Ecole de Bienfaisance / Weldadigheidsschool was soutside of the Menin road. Distance between the two (in a straight line) : 2.25 km (1.4 miles). I had wondered if somehow Haatswell Daad could be "hidden" in the name Heilig Hart (French : Sacré Coeur) or Asylum ... Anyway, it was a mental institution, and not a school. Well, this doesn't bring us any nearer to a solution, on the contrary I'm afraid ... :-( Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 (Edited : sorry Nigel, I was typing my posting (and doing my 'research') while your posting was already there.) Aurel, don't you just hate it when that happens So it looks likely that the remains of Stirling-Stuart might have been buried at Bedford Road as an 'unknown', although possibly the Ecole de Bienfaisance Cemetery was too badly damaged to allow the recovery and identification of some bodies . NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Hi M., Me again... Well, I found where you may have found the name of the school, and it was not in ... handwriting. :-) Taken from the Scottish War Memorial Project. Sorry, I really have no idea what school is meant. (In a previous life I was a teacher in Ypres for more than 30 years, but this does not ring a bell at all. But let it be clear : my "previous life" was post WW I. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 Nigel, I don't really know what to say ... One could go and have a look at Encl. N° 2 in Bedford House Cem., but I have no idea where exactly in it the graves of Ecole de Bienfaisance / Weldadigheidsschool Cem are ... Nor if there are many "Unknowns". Just this, can't go into details, but it seems to me that both Ecole de Bienfaisance and Asylum Cemeteries were moved to Bedford House Cemetery Encl. 2 later than other small cemeteries were moved. Not that this bears any relevance ... Sandy, Well, that is interesting ! So there is a link with the Heilig Hart / Sacred Heart / Asylum after all !? Just this : what do you mean with : Flemish = Haatsdaads ? I'm afraid I don't understand. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 As Aurel says, the two "school" locations are a considerable distance apart. Dying of wounds east of Ieper and being buried west of Ieper sounds a bit unusual - although the light railway ran that way. Aurel: does Haart mean heart in Flemish? Does haarts weil daads have something to do with Sacred Heart Fathers? Sandie: where did you copy your info from? Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelS Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 I've been looking through The Times : Monday, Oct 05, 1914 Officers Wounded Stirling-Stuart, sec. Lieut. J., Scots Gds Wednesday, Nov 18, 1914 Fallen Officers "The Times" List of Casualties THE OFFICIAL LISTS SECOND LIEUTENANT JAMES STIRLING-STUART, Scots Guards, who died in Paris from wounds received in the Battle of the Aisne on September 17, was the eldest son of Mr. William Stirling-Stuart of Castlemilk and Milton, Lanarkshire. He was born in in 1891, went to Christ Church, Oxford, and was gazetted to the Scots Guards on January 21, 1913. His younger brother, 2nd Lieutenant D.R. Stirling-Stuart, is in the Scots Greys. The house of Stuart of Castlemilk has seen fighting in France before, two brothers, Sir John & Sir William Stuary [sIC ?] , having fought for France against the English - Scotland being the ally of France - nearly 600 years ago, in 1428. The brothers were present at the Siege of Orleans, and probably fought around Reims, where our Army has fought to-day. Friday, Nov 20, 1914 Died Of Wounds STIRLING STUART. On the 9th Nov., at Ypres from wounds received in action same day, JAMES STIRLING STUART, second Lieutenant Scots Guards, aged 23, elder son of William Crawford Stirling Stuart, of Castlemilk. Friday, Nov 27, 1914 Fallen Officers "The times" List of Casualties PROMOTION OF FALLEN SUBALTERNS The promotion to lieutenant of the following second lieutenants of the Scots Guards, who have since been killed in action, were gazetted last night:- R.A. Compton-Thornhill, J. Stirling-Stuart,... This is only a theory (!): it looks as if he was wounded during the Battle of the Aisne on the 17th September, possibly being evacuated to a hospital in Paris (or elsewhere) where he didn't die as reported, but recovered to allow him to go back into action near Ypres to be killed on the 9th November, with the initial reporting (either through official channels or from erroneous information, because they weren't in full possession of the facts, from the family) believing that he was still in hospital in Paris (?) when he died. Unfortunately, none of this helps with the cemetery location; I wonder if it's possible that the Asylum Cemetery might have had an alternative name (to get round the stigma associated with such establishments in those days), possibly named after a small, school nearby? Alternatively, as Aurel's research shows that there was a cemetery at the location of the Ecole de Bienfaisance (I'm assuming this is the same, large 'Ecole' on the Menin Road which is shown on trench maps), the CWGC's decription of its location is either very wrong or, far less likely, perhaps there was another cemetery close to the Asylum Cemetery which has subsequently got confused with that at the Ecole de Bienfaisance because it was also named after an 'Ecole' - Pure speculation on my part! NigelS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 23 February , 2011 Share Posted 23 February , 2011 That's a fascinating find, Nigel. Talk about raising the dead! Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriaty Posted 24 February , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Thanks to all for their interest in my query, you are right, I got the "Haatswell Daads School" details from the Castlemilk memorial stone photograph on the Scottish War Memorial Project site. The battalion diary for the 1st Bn Scots Guards mentions James Stirling-Stuart several times: September 14 1914 "Moved at 5.30 a.m. via MOULINS and VENDRESSE to hill between that place and TROYON – 2 Companies in Brigade reserve and 2 Companies sent as artillery escort to TOUR DE PAISSY. Maj J. T. Carpenter-Garnier , Lt. H. R. I. Jones , 2/Lt. R. A. Compton-Thornhill and 16 men killed. Lt. Col. H. C. Lowther, 2/Lts. E. D. Mackenzie, J. Stirling Stewart and 86 men wounded, 12 men missing." October 28 1914 "In trenches nr. GHELUVELT. Receive warning from our intelligence that the German XXVII Reserve have been brought up and will attack at 5.30 a.m. tomorrow. Lt.R. H. Fitzroy and 2/Lt. J. Stirling Stuart joined battalion." November 8 1914: "– do (VELTHOEK) – Fairly heavy shelling. Enemy break through French and N. Lancs., get into communication trench and enfilade battalion trenches. L. N. Lancs. and our supports counter attacked and regained lost trenches. Germans remained in right trenches. Attempts made to turn them out with machine gun fire. Killed. Lt. R. N. Gipps, Lt. F. A. Monckton. Wounded. Lt. B. W. Smith (died of wounds), J. S. Stuart (died of wounds), Lt. J. S. Dyer Bt. Missing. Lt. A. W. Douglas-Dick." I think I have tracked Lt B W Smith who died of wounds as Captain Bernard Ridley Winthrop-Smith of the 1st Battalion, he died on 15 November, but unfortunately his place of burial does not help, he was buried in a private burial ground at his parents' home, South Wingfield Park, in Derbyshire. Moriaty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 I must say that in the first place I am puzzled by the name of the cemetery and school. And all I can say is that this is a complete mystery to me. Especially because this does not look or sound like Dutch (Flemish) at all. "Haatswell Daads School" I must say is (sorry) nonsense. Haat : English hate, hatred Well, with double -ll at the end cannot be Flemish/Dutch. Only (?) English ? Daads : we have a word "daad" (action), but the plural form is "daden", not "daads". In a previous posting "Haatsdaads" was mentioned. But that doesn't make sense either. (Piorun asked if Haart in Flemish means Heart ? Yes, but the name says Haat, not our Flemish/Dutch Hart.) Also, Sandy referred to Dehonians and Priests of the Sacred Heart. I went to the website (not easy), but I'm afraid I can see no connection with Ypres. (These priest all look Indian ?) Yet somehow hidden in that mysterious name "Haatswell Daads School" is, but I really have to stretch my imagination for that, "Weldadigheidsschool" (the Flemish name for the Ecole de Bienfaisance, where James Stirling (-) Stuart was. Well as in WELdadigheidsschool ... Daad as in WelDADigheid And the WELL DAADS in Haatswell Daads School indeed is heard in WELDADigheidsschool. (With a long -a-, and weldadigheid = bienfaisance. And it was a STAATSSCHOOL. And saying it loud a couple of times, I must say that indeed "Staatsweldadigheidsschool" sounds (a little) like : Haatswell Daads School. :-) I can't see why use could have been made of an anagram puzzle. So it must have been a not very successful remodelling of the name. (Actually I mean an atrocious distortion. Maybe based on what was heard, not on what was written.) So my final guess is that "Haatswell daads school" is a terribly mutilated form of "(Staats) Weldadigheidsschool", and that James Stirling-Stuart originally may have been buried in the cemetery near the Weldadigheidsschool / Ecole de Bienfaisance, the graves of which were later taken to Enclosure N°2 of Bedford House Cemetery. But there is I'm afraid not much to corroborate that. Maybe I could try to find out where other men in the Battalion who were killed that day (near Veldhoek) were buried, hoping they have an identified grave ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Is there a proven connection between the Weldadigheidsschool and the Congregation of the Sacred Heart? If there is, the mangled name Haatswell Daads School is presumably cobbled together out of HartsWel Dad(igheid)s School. Assuming we are in the realm of complete linguistic misunderstanding, Da(a)ds might perhaps even have been perceived as somehow relating to Dads = Fathers ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Mick, A connection between Weldadigheidsschool (Ecole de Bienfaisance) and Heilig Hartinstituut (Institut du Sacré Coeur) ? No, not that I know. Except that they may have been built in the same period (end 19th century or beginning 20th). And ... that sometimes (like by CWGC) the two were confounded. The latter was a mental institution north side of the Poperingseweg, the former was southside of Menin road. The latter was for psychiatric patients, the former for, well, 'naughty' boys, with behavior problems. It was also called de Verbeteringsschool, of "Huis van beternisse" (my Dutch/English dictionary says : Approved School (UK), Reformatory School (US), borstal (? UK), house of correction). The more I think about it, the more I think "Haatswell Daad School" it is a deformation of "Staatsweldadigheidsschool". Maybe someone misread handwritten "Staats" as "Haats" (St may look like H ?). And then "weldadigheidsschool" became "...well daads school", dropping the part (double suffix) "igheid", and separating the whole word in the wrong parts). That's the way I see it. As a ... Fleming. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 The more I think about it, the more I think "Haatswell Daad School" it is a deformation of "Staatsweldadigheidsschool". Maybe someone misread handwritten "Staats" as "Haats" (St may look like H ?). And then "weldadigheidsschool" became "...well daads school", dropping the part (double suffix) "igheid", and separating the whole word in the wrong parts). Yes, that seems an even better probable origin of 'Haatswell Daads'. Another great piece of detective work, Aurel — or should I perhaps say 'Ian Fleming' ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Aurel: Thank you so much for thinking this through. Misinterpretation followed by bastardisation and I think we have the answer. I should have said that the "haat" struck me as a bastardisation of Hart - with an extra "a" thrown in to make it look "foreign". A Mis-hearing of "staat" is far morely likely in the context. I could only find one reference to the Scared Heart Fathers having a "school" in Belgium. It was, apparently, a small mission near Luxembourg. Cheers, Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Well, now that I am 99 % sure that Haatswell Daads School = (Staats)Weldadigheidsschool, the Ecole de bienfaisance east of Ypres, I can start posting pics. This is the building as it looked like before WW I. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 A map. For the co-ordinates of the Ecole de Bienfaisance / Weldadigheidsschool Cemetery I found : 28.I.9.c.3.3 See arrow. Aurel P.S. Actually this afternoon I was on the exact spot. With Dingo, who is not a dingo but some sort of ******* labrador. ;-) For those who know the area : it is very close to the entrance of the Jeugdstadion camping site. P.S. 2 (Added 1 minute later) Well, that was a funny surprise ! I typed a word between "of" and "labrador", wanting to make clear that Dingo is not a pure-bred, but a ... well, a word beginning with a b-, ending on -d, and with -st- in the middle. I wonder who the moderator is who replaced it with 7 asterisks .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 And finally a pic of the cemetery itself. If I remember it correctly, it came from Forum member John S., 5 or 6 years ago, taken from this topic : http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=27108&st=0&p=211679&hl=bienfaisance&fromsearch=1entry211679 (where it is not visible anymore, that's why I repost it). By the way, in the other topic I see someone mentioned a soldier whose grave was taken to Bedford Cemetery (too). Should John S. see this, and still have the original postcard, maybe he can have a look with a magnifying glass if the name James Stirling-Stuart is visible on one of the crosses ? Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 P.S. 2 (Added 1 minute later) Well, that was a funny surprise ! I typed a word between "of" and "labrador", wanting to make clear that Dingo is not a pure-bred, but a ... well, a word beginning with a b-, ending on -d, and with -st- in the middle. I wonder who the moderator is who replaced it with 7 asterisks .... No human intervention required, Aurel. It's an automatic function of the forum software that censors certain prohibited words. Get round it by replacing one of the letters of the word with a symbol — b@stard, for example. Or try the word 'mongrel' ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 I knew I had seen this referred to before but it took me a while to remember where: http://www.1914-1918.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1793&hilit=daads&start=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Glad to see you're not growing older, Chris - just better. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 I'm not sure about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 24 February , 2011 Share Posted 24 February , 2011 Aurel: I look forward to meeting Dingo next time we're around Ieper. In the meantime, may I ask what is the Flemish for "father" or its diminutive form "dad"? Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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