1908 web equipment

[Muerrisch]

I note from Chappell that the LHS pouches were modified after trench experience showed ammo. was being lost therefrom.

Please does anyone have a good illustration and, if possible, date etc from List of Changes?

[John Thorne]

What you are referring to is the third issue left pouch (only the left pouches were modified). LoC 16979, acceptance date 17th October 1914.

Karkee Web has good illustrations of this and other versions of the '08 Cartridge carriers, plus a copy of the LoC itself.

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1908/carriers_cartridge.html

[Muerrisch]

Marvellous, thank you so much .... a brilliant site.

Is it fair to say that the modified left side pouches are fairly difficult to spot in period photos? I ask beacause it might help in dating early war photos, shall we say pre-Nov 1914 as opposed to post?

[John Thorne]

The modified left pouch is one of the things I look for in establishing a "no earlier than" sort of date. My experience is that they are quite often easy to spot in period photos.

[Andrew Upton]

This reference in the 2nd Bn Seaforth Highlanders War Diary might be of interest:

Page 39, 30.9.14 Notes Cont.

...

(i) Pouches of Equipment - after some wear these are difficult to close, & remain constantly open - much ammunition was lost by this.

I'd always believed the story of soldiers leaning against a trench and the flaps being pulled open until I saw this, which gives more the implication it was more a problem with the snaps themselves failing with use after time.

[Muerrisch]

Gentlemen, very many thanks ........ the web equipment has hitherto been a grey [well, khaki!] area for me.

[John Thorne]

Andrew,

Thank you for sharing this information. I have taken the liberty of adding your War Diary entry to the Karkee Web writeup on the 3rd issue pouches, and of adding you to the Honour Roll of KW Contributors. Please have a look at the url I posted above and see what you think - I will of course modify or remove it if you have any objections.

Thanks,

John

[Andrew Upton]

Thank you for sharing this information. I have taken the liberty of adding your War Diary entry to the Karkee Web writeup on the 3rd issue pouches, and of adding you to the Honour Roll of KW Contributors. Please have a look at the url I posted above and see what you think - I will of course modify or remove it if you have any objections.

No objection at all, nice to have helped such a good site . There a couple of sets of pages covering kit problems and similar in 1914 alone in the diary (the entry preceeding the pouch closure is to do with the cloth ammunition bandoliers wearing out when carried for too long and not being able to be returned to the ammo carts when they'd been refilled, with the suggestion they be made of stronger material). My favourite is from December 31st 1914 - "Boots and puttees: Boots and puttees have been drawn by the Battalion, as spats and hosetops were apparently not available. In many cases the boots were not good..." - no trench mud sucking off shoes and gaiters as is often quoted, in this case simple supply issues forcing the 2nd Seaforths into boots and puttees

[4thGordons]

No objection at all, nice to have helped such a good site . There a couple of sets of pages covering kit problems and similar in 1914 alone in the diary (the entry preceeding the pouch closure is to do with the cloth ammunition bandoliers wearing out when carried for too long and not being able to be returned to the ammo carts when they'd been refilled, with the suggestion they be made of stronger material). My favourite is from December 31st 1914 - "Boots and puttees: Boots and puttees have been drawn by the Battalion, as spats and hosetops were apparently not available. In many cases the boots were not good..." - no trench mud sucking off shoes and gaiters as is often quoted, in this case simple supply issues forcing the 2nd Seaforths into boots and puttees

O/T here I know but this sort of thing makes me want to spit. "My" Battalion's diary - which I have transcribed in full an am now annotating, contains almost NO interesting little snippets of this nature, it is all "by the book and minimal" - casualties counted but never named unless officers, almost no reference to equipment only the most veiled comments, the odd detailed combat report but nothing like this.....[sigh! If it was easy it wouldn't be fun right?]

By the way John - KW is going from strength to strength and is truly an excellent reseource.

Chris

[Fromelles]

I chanced upon a newspaper article on the subject of lost ammunition from the 08 equipment... 3 years before change to the design was finally made. It calls into question the story that loss of ammunition became an issue due to the early experiences of trench warfare.

I couldn't screenshot the entire article so copy & pasted it below. A link to the article can be found HERE [The Register (Adelaide, South Australia) - Saturday 2 September 1911 - Page 4]

—Ammunition Carried on the Soldier.—

   The constant improvement in rapidity of

rifle fire has made the question of ammuni-

tion supply in the firing line one of great

difficulty, and the problem is still unsolved

(says an English military journal). It is

essential that every man should have on

him an ample supply of ammunition when

he reaches the decisive ranges, and an in-

structive lesson regarding the way the al-

ready meagre supply, is decimated, would

be forthcoming for military experts were

they to follow closely on a battalion of in-

fantry when engaged in carrying out the

field-firing practices with ball cartridge un-

der service conditions. The ground is

strewn with clips full of ball cartridge,

which have fallen out of the men's pouches

during the advance, and this has been the

case ever since the introduction of the new

pattern web equipment. The cause of this

loss of ammunition is complex. It is, how-

ever, so serious a matter that it should be

legislated for without delay. The web

equipment has so many good qualities, and

brings such comfort to the marching sol-

dier, that we have nothing but praise for

it in other directions. The matter of the

ammunition holders is, however, one that

needs attention at once, and when the de-

fect is being remedied it would be of con-

siderable importance if it could be arranged

that the ammunition be carried in a posi-

tion more easy to get at. As at present

arranged, the soldier is lying on his am-

munition supply when in the prone posi-

tion.

[Pete_C]

7 hours ago, Fromelles said:

I chanced upon a newspaper article on the subject of lost ammunition from the 08 equipment... 3 years before change to the design was finally made. It calls into question the story that loss of ammunition became an issue due to the early experiences of trench warfare.

I couldn't screenshot the entire article so copy & pasted it below. A link to the article can be found HERE [The Register (Adelaide, South Australia) - Saturday 2 September 1911 - Page 4]

That’s very interesting, especially as it highlights known design defects identified some time before the outbreak of war. The design of the Pattern 1908 Web Equipment was criticised in the British parliament on a number of occasions during the war, most persistently by D D Sheehan, MP for Mid-Cork. However, his comments in the House were largely driven by an obsession with obtaining royalties on behalf of Major C Honey, Army Ordnance Department, for his design of the Pattern 1914 Leather Infantry Equipment, but that’s another story. With regard to the loss of ammunition, James O’Grady, MP for Leeds-East, raised the following questions during a debate in the House of Commons on 29th June 1916 - it’s interesting to note that he also makes reference to reports received as to the ‘loss of ammunition prior to…..this War’

Mr O’Grady asked the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether reports have been received from the various commands as to the shrinkage of the Infantry web equipment and consequent loss of ammunition prior to and during this War; and whether, having regard to the fact that loss of ammunition may involve loss of life to troops on active service, what steps, if any, have been taken to rectify defects in such equipment?

Mr. Forster replied - Complaints have been made in the past as to the shrinkage of the web equipment, and an extra process of shrinking the material during manufacture was introduced to remedy this. During the present War a device has been added to the flap of the left cartridge carrier to prevent loss of ammunition; this was done at the request of the authorities Overseas, and no further complaints have since been received.

Mr. O'Grady - Is it not impossible for this web equipment to contain the fifteen cartridges supposed to be in each pocket; and is it not a fact that quite recently, when men have been attacked, the cartridges have fallen out and they have been absolutely without ammunition?

Mr Forster - If there had been many cases of that kind we should have had complaints from Headquarters, but we have had no complaints since the alteration was made, therefore I expect the cases of complaints made are exceptional.

Edited 7 August , 2022 by Pete_C