petey Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Another Remington 1917, [ wrong frog ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 I have posted this before and Chris and S>S have seen it, but I thought it might be worth posting again. It is a Remingtonn 5 16, nothing unusual about that, but it is one of the few I have seen that are unit marked. It is marked to the 4th North Staffordshire which was a Territorial battalion. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Another Remington 1917, [ wrong frog ] Methinks "wrong" scabbard as well, or at least the topmount is not correct for a M1917 scabbard. Its either a later stud P1907 scabbard painted green OR a M1917 scabbard that has been modified for British use. I'm thinking the latter and probably one of the Home Guard variations for when they were using these during WW2. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 18 February , 2011 Share Posted 18 February , 2011 Just as an aside, you might like to check THIS current thread for a clear pic of the P14 rifle in use, most probably a Training battalion. (see post #10) Its surprising how many of these rifles you do see being used with the Training units, quite a few made an appearance in the Postcards thread as well. BTW TonyE, the 4th Nth Staffs was not a Territorial unit but a "Reserve" battalion (deja vue.!), which probably means your P'13 was involved in the training capacity as well. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 19 February , 2011 Share Posted 19 February , 2011 Yes, I forgot we had discussed this before. The North Staffs. were one of the odd ones that were not a "large" regiment but had an Extra Reserve Battalion and the Territorals were the 5th and 6th battalions. I think theat bayonet must have been issued in 1917 when they were based back in the UK at Saltburn. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 Were the P1913 bayonets examined and stamped again before re-issue to the HG? If so do we have any examples of examiners marks which can be identified as closer to WW2 than WW1. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 Were the P1913 bayonets examined and stamped again before re-issue to the HG? If so do we have any examples of examiners marks which can be identified as closer to WW2 than WW1. Mick I can't recall seeing any P1913 bayonets that have been stamped for reissue in WW2, especially not for HG use - I don't think they were considered a very high priority.! They were stamping reissue marks onto the blades of P1907's right up until the start of the war. You do see some marked on the ricasso with the year in this fashion ie. '38 etc. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 Thanks for that S.S, I have seen late re-issue dates for P1907. I was just wondering because the P1913 I have on my desk at the moment (it's a big desk) has 2 examiners marks, which considering it is dated 3/17 made me think about when they would have been stamped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 They normally were stamped with the 2 inspection marks plus the bend test X. The marks were in the Crown over Number over A format, with one down the centre and one to the left side. Attached pic below, not the best stamped P1913 ricasso but it does show the expected layout. If you have any further concerns just post up a photo of your stamps and give us a look. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 (edited) I can't recall seeing any P1913 bayonets that have been stamped for reissue in WW2, especially not for HG use - I don't think they were considered a very high priority.! They were stamping reissue marks onto the blades of P1907's right up until the start of the war. You do see some marked on the ricasso with the year in this fashion ie. '38 etc. Cheers, S>S This is an interesting observation and one which I will check on my examples when I get home. I have quite a lot of P1907s with interwar refinish/reinspection dates but I do not believe any of my P1913s do. I wonder if this is because they were put into storage along with the P14 rifles (at least those not supplied abroad) post WWI and remained there until the Weedon program in the late 1930s? Chris EDIT: I should make this a general question. Does anyone else who has a P13 bayonet have one with interwar reissue marks? in the format indicated by S>S above. Edited 22 March , 2011 by 4thGordons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 So what was the purpose of the 2 stamps and what is their relationship to each other? Would one be the blade including bend test and the other the finished article? 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 So what was the purpose of the 2 stamps and what is their relationship to each other? Would one be the blade including bend test and the other the finished article? Both of these inspection marks were applied during the manufacturing process and signify approval by an inspector at a certain point along the way. I am not totally certain but I think you are probably correct in saying that one mark would be the blade proof and the other would be for the finished article. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 Note that both the proof stamps have an "A" code for "America". If they had been carried out by Enfield inspectors they would have an "E" code or "B" for Birmingham. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 March , 2011 Share Posted 22 March , 2011 Note that both the proof stamps have an "A" code for "America". If they had been carried out by Enfield inspectors they would have an "E" code or "B" for Birmingham. Regards TonyE Two of my p13s have "A codes", one has an E code (EDIT replacement photo added) Does this mean inspected at Enfield Lock - or by RSAF inspectors in the US? (as opposed to employees of Remington?) Chris Edit (replaced photo originally posted with a new one, is this an A on the lower one and an E on the upper?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 The overwhelming majority of inspection marks found on the P1913's will have the A code for inspectors based in America, however you do see the odd E code especially on the earlier production. I am not sure why this is so, probably an Enfield based inspector was employed in the early days to ensure things got off to a smooth start, but really its anyone's guess as to why this happened. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 I will have to try to find a reference, perhaps in the History of the Ministry of Munitions volume dealing with the Inspection department, but I very much doubt if the "E" inspection stamps were applied in America. The inspectors in America were mainly British anyway. I suspect that it is much more likely that the early bayonets were re-inspected at Enfield and were stamped again there to ensure that the US production was satisfactory. I am looking into the workings of the inspection department at the moment for my thesis research. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 As usual TonyE, for arguments sake I will stick with the opposing viewpoint - that these E coded inspection marks were applied onsite in America at the Remington factory.! To back this with evidence I will put forward the very style and lettering of the inspection mark itself, which in my experience is slightly different to what was being stamped in Britain at the time. But apart from that I will personally be very interested in anything you can uncover in your research in regard to the use of these inspection marks. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 I will put forward the very style and lettering of the inspection mark itself, which in my experience is slightly different to what was being stamped in Britain at the time. Cheers, S>S Since you brought it up - what do you think of the stamping on Mick's (Auchonvillierssomme's) example? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 All I would say is that it appears from the small sample of 3 photos posted above, that the inspection mark placed to the left is to do with the blade proofing. They all look to have been stamped at the same time as the bend test X mark, and apparently with the same hand going on the depth of stamping, etc. And I guess that makes the centre stamp the acceptance mark for the finished article, probably again due to its proximity to the 'broad arrow' govt approval mark Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 23 March , 2011 Share Posted 23 March , 2011 Thanks - but actually I meant the style of stamping/font - in comparison to the other examples you might have seen(lettering, crown etc)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Keep this up I'm intrigued, I was checking it to sell so please tell me its unique! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Keep this up I'm intrigued, I was checking it to sell so please tell me its unique! Sorry to disappoint Mick - but if you want it checked, would you perhaps be able to post the other side view of the date, etc. It should have 1913 stamped over the Month/Year and then Remington in a circle, but I'm interested in what date it was made. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 Here you go, bog standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 24 March , 2011 Share Posted 24 March , 2011 It does look very tidy, those grips and screws are in fine condition, no sign of rust - it should sell quite well. Is that a touch of black paint that I see.? If so it is usually a good sign of being used by the HG during WW2, which is what you wanted to know in the first place.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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