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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

1913 Pattern bayonet


Garron

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Hey Pals,

Picked this bayonet up today, I think I did quite well its a 1913 pattern August 1917 dated, with cancelled out British stamps and a U.S. added underneath. The scabbard is a matching Remington made (RE) stamped. With the tear drop stud.

post-7438-087360200 1297452508.jpg

Grand sum £50. What do you guys think... a good buy?

Gaz

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Looks good and £50 is a fair price. My Remington P1913 came in a WWII Australian P1907 scabbard - fortunately I was later able to find a teardrop stud scabbard for the bayonet and a WWII Australian P1907 bayonet for the scabbard. All's well that ends well.:)

A thought occurs; wouldn't a US adopted P1913 bayonet have been issued in a US M1917 scabbard?

Cheers,

Mark

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Wouldn't a US adopted P1913 bayonet have been issued in a US M1917 scabbard?

Cheers,

Mark

Thats right, a P1913 that was overstamped and issued for US service around that date would most likely have been matched with the 1st pattern scabbard for the M1917, shown HERE.

These had the leather hanger for attachment which was a notoriously weak design, and was rapidly replaced in service by the 2nd pattern with the incorporated metal holder for the belt loop.

Cheers, S>S

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I thought the scabbard was for a 1907 but as it was a Remington too I dont really mind. It will be displayed without that anyway.

Gaz

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I thought the scabbard was for a 1907 but as it was a Remington too I dont really mind. It will be displayed without that anyway.

Gaz

In British service the scabbards used for the p1907 and p13 were identical and interchangeable.

That your US issued bayonet is paired with a British scabbard (and was presumably bought in the UK?) raises the interesting possibility that the life of this bayonet was:

1) Late production P13 intended for for Britain but never delivered

2) Absorbed into US service as M1917

3) Supplied to the UK for use in WWII and paired with a British pattern scabbard for home-guard use.

4) Sold on as surplus

Chris

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Hey Chris,

Yes it was bought in the UK. I've never purchased a bayonet from overseas.

Prehaps it did have an interesting life, would be great if things could talk.

Its my American example bayonet, I'm trying to get a bayonet from each of the major countries.

So far I have:

British 1888x3 (they seemed to multiply :) ) and a 1907 (looking for a 1903 too)

US P13

Germany S98/05 (Butcher)

French Gras 1874 (Not strictly WW1 but still accounts of it being used). Looking for a Lebel 1886)

So Belgium, Austria, Russia, Turkey and Italy I think are left. I'd add Serbia but I am not holding much hope in finding what ever bayonet they use... to be honest I'm not really sure.

Gaz

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Hi Gaz.

The Austro-Hungarian M1895 bayonets are pretty easy to find, as are the Russian M1891 Nagant bayonets (but don't get a 91-30 WWII variant).

Regarding the Serbian bayonets I think they had a real mix, according to one bloke in the know in 1914 they had:

Serbian rifle 7mm "Mauser" system; Old upgraded rifle "Mauser-Koka" system, Turkish "Mauser" rifle captured in the First balkan war, Russian Nagant M1891, "Mannlicher" rifle, and reserve troops "Berdanka" (I think this is the Russian Berdan-Chris) rifle with black powder...later on when rearmed and reequipped and fighting in Macedonia they had mostly French equipment (Lebels and Berthiers)

So it looks like you could double up with some of them!

Turkish bayonets of various sorts are very common but a minefield for period ID

One you omitted - how about a Canadian Ross bayonet?

You could also add a Japanese Arisaka Type 30 bayonet too

US 1903s are ridiculously expensive...I have one battered example.

Now have a care....as you know where this sort of thing can lead....

Chris

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US 1903s are ridiculously expensive...I have one battered example.

Now have a care....as you know where this sort of thing can lead....

Chris

But they're worth every cent Chris .... :thumbsup:

Surely you could trade one or two battered SMLE's for a tidy US bayonet - that would have to be a good deal.!! :lol:

Say no more about the other, speaking from experience there aren't we ... (actually I second that motion)

Cheers, S>S

post-52604-045106800 1297484192.jpg

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Thanks Chris and S>S

Yes I know where thing type of thing can lead too and once I get the ones I am looking for that is it...I'll be happy (famous last words :P ). I certainly wont be buying the rifles to accompany them, if I had a bigger room and a better job I probably would.

I have a compromise to the rifles, the muzzle and bayonet attachments. A French ebay seller makes them out of cast resin (wont advertise if anyone want to know PM me) The Long Lee is one I made from scratch as he doesn't make those, still needs a bit of work to be accurate.

post-7438-078205200 1297515124.jpg

Gaz

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Garron, I can't quite tell but in your first photo it looks like the wooden grips have two grooves carved across them? If so, it's a sure way of identifying a bayonet used by the British Home Guard during WW2. The grooves were to indicate that the bayonet would only fit a P14/P17 and not the SMLE.

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Whilst what you say about the grooves being used to differentiate between the Patt.'07 and Patt.'13 bayonets is true, it is certainly not a "sure way of identifying a bayonet used by the British Home Guard". The grooves were put there from when they were manufactured in WWI, and not every P.'13 and M1917 bayonet ended up in the Home Guard by a long way. Think Latvia for a start!

Regards

TonyE

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Thanks Chris and S>S

Yes I know where thing type of thing can lead too and once I get the ones I am looking for that is it...I'll be happy (famous last words :P ). I certainly wont be buying the rifles to accompany them, if I had a bigger room and a better job I probably would.

I have a compromise to the rifles, the muzzle and bayonet attachments. A French ebay seller makes them out of cast resin (wont advertise if anyone want to know PM me) The Long Lee is one I made from scratch as he doesn't make those, still needs a bit of work to be accurate.

post-7438-078205200 1297515124.jpg

Gaz

Hi Gaz. I have to say that i am also very pleased with the bayonet stands from a certain French seller. A great idea. Very impressed with your Long Lee stand, very nice.

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Thanks, its a bit rough around the edges, the nosecap isn't recessed as per the original as I don't have the tools, its a thin layer of epoxy putty, It was really easy to make, its just 4 pieces of beading from B&Q and a dowel glued together :)I dont know if the dimensions are correct as I don't have an original to compare but it does the job.

Gaz

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Nice buy Garron, i have in my collection a nice 1917 remington, u.s model only, with green scabard and leather belt fitting. alas my markings are not as interesting as yours .

I bought my bayonets years ago, know a little about them.

I take it this site is happy to be able to post a picture of bayonets, swords, knives ?

All the best . pete.

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I take it this site is happy to be able to post a picture of bayonets, swords, knives ?

All the best . pete.

Pete

In so far as they are directly related to WWI, yes. If not, no! :thumbsup:

Chris

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Thanks Pete, I have my eye on some more the dealer has... as they say cash is king and gets you a better deal :)

Yes Pete by all means please do post them, always nice to see other pals items. They have to be under 100kb as there is a restiction. You could use photobucket, Flickr imageshack that type of photo hosting if you wanted large resolution.

Gaz

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Whilst what you say about the grooves being used to differentiate between the Patt.'07 and Patt.'13 bayonets is true, it is certainly not a "sure way of identifying a bayonet used by the British Home Guard". The grooves were put there from when they were manufactured in WWI, and not every P.'13 and M1917 bayonet ended up in the Home Guard by a long way. Think Latvia for a start!

Regards

TonyE

Sorry Tony I've never heard that said before. I thought they were put there circa '39 to differentiate because of two different rifles being used by the same, or nearby, units.

During WW1 the M1917 was surely not used by us, so why would any markings be needed? And in the case of the P14, wouldn't they be issued/used 'en-bloc' rather than being mixed with SMLE's? Again, wouldn't that negate the need for markings?

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I am afraid you are rather adrift on this one. It would take too long to give a detailed explanation in answer to your points so forgive me if this is a somewhat brief resume. I can only suggest you search the forum for Pattern '13 bayonets and read a few of the posts.

Britain ordered 3.4 million Pattern '14 rifles and Pattern '13 bayonets in America in 1914/15

P.'13 bayonets were to have the two grooves in the grip to distinguish them from P.'07 bayonets

Rifle production was delayed and the P.'14 rifle did not enter front line service. Rifles and bayonets were placed in store.

Britain cancelled the remainder of the P.'14 contracts in late 1916 and production ceased in mid 1917.

The U.S. had entered the war in April 1917 and was short of rifles so the P.'14 production line was modified to produce the M1917 rifle in .30-06

Production of the P.'13 bayonet, complete with grip grooves continued as the M1917 bayonet. Some undelivered British bayonets were re-marked as U.S. M1917s.

Britain purchased large quantities of M1917 rifles and Bayonets from America in 1940 and issued these to the Home Guard

After Lend Lease was passed in July 1941 the U.S. shipped further large quantities of M1917s to the British.

The original intention in 1914 was that the P.14 and the SMLE would serve alongside each other in WWI which was why the grooves were in the grips from manufacture in 1915-1917. It has nothing to do with the M1917 being issued in either war.

I trust this explains the reasons.

Regards

TonyE

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Everything that Tony said. :thumbsup:

The two types (p07 and p13/m17) are externally very similar: identical blade style and length same pommel design, same catch system, identical scabbards - in essence the only (but crucial) difference between them is the diameter of the muzzle ring and its distance from the handle so the grooves make a very effective quick visual distinction.

During WWII LDV/Home Guard used a red stripe painted around the body of M1917 rifles to distinguish their calibre (.30-06) from the standard British service .303 cartridge used in the vast majority of other rifle types in use. Perhaps this is where the confusion originates?

Chris

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Thanks for the info on " allowed to post pic,s of bayonets "

After reading your post,s i understand very little on my small collection !

Does anyone know of a site on line i can date some ? dont want to post a pic of ww2 bayonets !

In the mean time i better get the camera out !

Thanks, pete.

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Post them up, we can tell you whats what... even if its a few ww2 mixed with ww1.

This websites quite good for info. Dates tend to be on the bayonet stamped somewhere anyway.

http://www.old-smithy.info/

Gaz

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Tony, Chris, thanks but I was aware of all that already, I just didn't know the grooves were added during manufacture, but was under the (wrong) impression they were added in the early part of the Second World War.

Thanks anyway chaps.

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Meny thanks gaz, i have been useing this website for family research, excellent site !

Dont be surprised to find some new questions n pic,s in the arms forum soon.

Will post a pic of the remington [ 1917] tomorrow.

off too check some sites .

Thanks again .

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Although I don't collect US militaria per se, I have a soft spot for these series of bayonets. The collection currently consists of:

Remington P1913

Winchester P1913

Remington M1917

Winchester M1917

Remington M1917 - marked 1918

(Plus a 1917 Winchester made Enfield P1914 rifle to hang them on)

Fortunately all purchased some years ago before the prices started getting silly. Sadly I don't have any pictures to hand and Heatseaker's bayonet above takes 1st prize for condition.:thumbsup:

Mark

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