Lt Col A S Bates DSO London Rifle Brigade

[crodgers]

Hi all,

I am attempting to locate some information regarding this gentleman - Lt Col A S Bates DSO 1/5th (London Rifle Brigade), London Regt. I have found quite a bit of information | (though it is a bit vague) regarding his war time exploits.

Commanded the London Rifle Brigade from February 1915 to 13 August 1916. Arthur Sydney Bates was educated at Winchester and was a pre-war Territorial officer who had joined the LRB as a subaltern on 26 March 1900, gaining his Lieutenancy in 1901 and his Captaincy in 1905. He sailed to France aboard the Chyebassa with the original first battalion as commander of D (or No. 4) Company. After becoming second in command on 8 January 1915 as a Major, Bates succeeded to command the battalion after Lieutenant-Colonel W.D. (Lord) Cairns was invalided home on 16 March 1915, being the first Territorial officer to command the battalion. He was invalided home on 12 August 1916 and was succeeded by Lieutenant-Colonel R.H. Husey, another Territorial promoted from within the battalion. After recovering from illness, Bates commanded the 3/5th Lancashire Fusiliers and took them to France on 28 February 1917, being given the full rank of Lieutenant-Colonel on 4 June 1917. Bates returned to England on 7 January 1918 before being given command of 4th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment on 23 January 1918, this battalion being disbanded on 5 July 1919. Bates was awarded the Distinguished Service Order on 23 June 1915 for gallantry, was awarded the French Croix de Guerre with palm, and was mentioned in despatches on four occasions. Bates was clearly a brave and effective battalion commander and keen Territorial. He was also a keen sportsman, captaining the British Empire Shooting Team in 1919.

I have seen in other posts where members have downloaded the war diaries for the LRB but I have no idea where to locate them.

I was also wondering if there is any way I can locate information regarding his 3 mentions in despatches and his DSO? And lastly Arthur was invalided home due to sickness - is there any way of locating what it was ?

I have gleaned a lot of information from Short History of the London Rifle Brgade published in 1916, Ancestry has his medal card and London Gazette has the promotions and mentions he was awarded the DSO.

If anybody has any other information about Arthur I would be very grateful.

Kind Regards

Cam

[connaughtranger]

Just had a quick look in the London Rifle Brigade history 1859-1919 and it claims 4 Mentions in Despatches for Lt Col Bates but doesn't clarify or record the events

[rflory]

Bates was four times Mentioned in Despatches in the London Gazettes of 22 Jun 1915; 1 Jan 1916; 15 Jun 1916; and 7 Jan 1918. In addition to the DSO he also received the French Croix de Guerre.

Dick Flory

[crodgers]

Hi,

Thanks for replying. I re-read what I have researched and you are right Dick...it was four times he was mentioned in Despatches. One last question do you know if a war diary exists for the LRB? As I have seen an extract from a book that mentioned Arthur (and the LRB) being part of the Christmas Truce in 1914. Being in Australia really hampers research sometimes...thank God for the internet.

Thanks again for the help

Cam

[SWorrall]

From the DSO book;

BATES, Arthur Sydney, was born 18th June 1879, son of S. E. Bates of Manydown Park, Basingstoke and Elizabeth J., daughter of Lt.-Col. G. G. Malet, 3rd Queens Own Bombay Light Infantry.

He was educated at Winchester College.

Served in the European War 1914 - 1918, as Temporary Lt.-Col 1915, and was promoted to Lt.-Col. 1917.

He commanded the London Rifle Brigade 17 months and the 3/5th battn. Loyal North Lancashire Regt. (T.F.) for 10 months. (N.B. not the 3/5th Lancs Fusiliers)

In France he commanded 4th (Reserve) battn. Loyal North Lancashire Fusiliers (sic. there is no such regiment) till disbandment.

He was mentioned four times in Dispatches ; received the French Croix de Guerre with Palm ; and was created a Companion of the DSO (LG 23rd June 1915) "Arthur Sydney Bates, Major, 5th City of London Regiment, London Rifle Brigade, Territorial Force. For distinguished service in the field."

He is a Fellow of the Royal Philatelic Society in London.

Lt.-Col. Bates married, in 1905, Mary da Costa, daughter of Lt.-Col. Charles Robert Crosse, C.M.G, M.V.O., and Catherine, only daughter of the late Major-Gen. Whitworth Porter, R.E., and they have one daughter.

Simon.

[bmac]

Contact member erniecrisp. He specialises in all things London Rifle Brigade.

[bmac]

According to the full LB history he did command the 3/5th Lancashire Fusiliers then the 4th (Reserve) Battalion, Loyal North Lancashire Regt (I would suggest the DSO book is incorrect). He was then offered, but refused, command of a Special Reserve Battalion in Ireland. He was a very good shot winning multiple medals and awards. The regimental history only says 'ill health' and he does not feature in the book thereafter and there are no mentions of the reasons for his awards.

[crodgers]

Thanks for all the replies ...I have a couple of extra leads now...once I complete my searches I will post an update.

Cam

[chrrip]

Hi; this is my record of Arthur Bates from my nominal roll of LRB men and officers who crossed to France with the original 1st Battalion on 4.11.14. Bates was a crack shot in a regiment noted for its shooting. I do not know exactly what his illness was but strongly suspect he was worn out - Gommecourt affected him deeply. He was also 1st LRB commanding officer post war. Let me know if I can help (try) further

Chris

1/5th Bn. to France 4.11.14 – 15.8.16; OC ‘Q’ Coy 1905-1914: OC ‘4’ Coy 1914 to 7.1.15; 2i/c 8.1.15 – 15.3.15, Major 6.3.1915; T/Lt.Col 16.4.15; Lt.Col. 4.6.17commanded 1st Bn. 16.3.15 – 13.8.16; invalided UK 15.8.16; to command 3/5 Lancashire Fusiliers at Colchester 8.2.17; France 28.2.17; UK 7.1.18 to command 4 Bn. L.North Lancs. R. 23.1.18; disbanded Bn. 5.7.19; offered temporary command of a Spec. Res. Batt. in Ireland by GHQ but refused; Hons: DSO; Mentioned in Despatches x 4; French Croix de Guerre with palm; T.D.

( ed : Winchester; Pte. 1st VB Hants 14.11.1896-1.11.1898; joined LRB as 2/Lieut. 26.3.1900; Lieut. 13.11.1901; Capt.1905; LRB Gold Medallist 1906, 1909, 1913.; present at the unveiling of the LRB Memorial, London Rifle Brigade Cemetery, Ploegsteert, in 1927 )

DSO Lt/Col L.G. 23.6.15 wef 3.6.15 Birthday Hons (for 2nd Ypres)

LRB Record, Nov. 1919; ‘Regimental “Who’s Who”, Lieut-Colonel A. S. Bates, D.S.O.,T.D.;

‘Lieut-Colonel A S Bates, DSO, TD, who was appointed to the temporary command of the LRB on July 1st this year, was born in 1879.

Before joining the LRB, he served for two years in the ranks of the 1st V.B. Hants. Regt. Resigning as a private when he left Winchester. He joined the Brigade in 1900, being gazetted 2nd Lieut. on March 26th, and posted to ‘B’ Company under Captain E G Stenson Cooke. He was promoted Lieut. on November 13th, 1901, being posted to ‘N’ Company on June 12th 1915, and taking over command on promotion to Captain on November 25th of the same year. In May 1906, ‘N’ Company was absorbed by ‘E’, and Captain Bates was transferred to the command of ‘Q’ which he held until it was amalgamated with ‘H’ in France on November 24th 1914, to make No. 4 Company. He held command of the latter till January 7th 1915.

From January 8th till March 15th he was Second in Command to Lord Cairns, and took over command of the Battalion on March 16th, when the C.O. had unfortunately to leave owing to ill-health. Promoted Major on March 6th, and temporary Lieut.-Colonel on April 16th, he commanded the 1st Battalion through the second battle of Ypres, the period spent at G.H.Q., at St. Eloi with the 3rd Division, and at Gommecourt with the 56th Division.

He was invalided home on August 15th, handing over command to Major R H Husey, M.C., two days earlier. After a period of sick leave at home, he was offered the command of the 3/5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, then at Colchester preparing for overseas. Loth as he was, even temporarily, to sever his links with the LRB, he accepted this, and took the Battalion to France on February 28th 1917, in the 66th Division. He commanded it at Givenchy, on the sea coast ( where at one time he had three battalions under him on coast defence under the immediate command of the French ) and at Passchendaele. His permanent promotion to the rank of Lieut.-Colonel was dated June 4th 1917.

On January 7th 1918, he was sent home on the understanding that he was to become an instructor at the Senior Officers’ School at Aldershot. There being, however, no vacancy, he was given the command on January 23rd of the 4th ® Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, stationed at Oswestry. The Battalion was sent to Dublin during the scare in April, 1918, and it remained there until disbanded by col. Bates on July 7th this year. Prior to the latter date he was offered the temporary command of a Special Reserve Battalion in Ireland, but, having made other arrangements, was unable to accept it.

He was awarded the D.S.O. to date from June 3rd 1915; has been mentioned in despatches four times, holds the T.D. and the French Croix de Guerre with palm.

Always keen on rifle shooting, Colonel bates has won first prizes at Bisley on several occasions. He won the King’s Bronze Medal in 1907. He has been Adjutant of several International Teams, and was captain of the British Team which won the Empire Trophy this year. He has shot for England in the Twenty and Mackinnon Matches, and was for three years hon. sec. of the English Twenty Club. he won the Regimental Gold Medal three times.

His hobby outside the regiment is philately, and he is a Fellow and Member of the Council of the Royal Philatelic Society, London. He is on the Livery of the Merchant Taylors.’

[crodgers]

Hi all,

I have had a bit of success researching Arthur Bates and thought I might post a little gem.

I managed to locate Arthur's grandson who has been a great help with the family history of Arthur Bates. In particular he has forwarded to me a scan of a letter Arthur sent to his sister on Christmas Eve 1914. From what I can gather Arthur was part of the the Christmas Truce of 1914 and the letter says:

Dearest Dorothy Just a line from the trenches on Xmas Eve - a topping night with not much firing going on and both sides singing - it will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. My orders to the boys are not to start firing unless the Germans do! Best love from your loving brotherArthur

Thought this might be of interest to a few of you.

Cam

[chrrip]

As you say a little gem. Bates was a company commander at the time of the Truce, second in command a couple of weeks later. I have seen an account of the Truce by one of the other officers who was seconded to the Somerstes at the time. Have you seen any other letter etc? I believe the IWM has correspondence from him about 2nd Ypres; I"ll look out the reference

regards Chris

[vvcherico]

Dear Friends, I am doing research on Col. A.S. Bates I have been unable to find an obituary? I believe he died in 1958.

Does anyone out there know of one?

Thanks Vin Cherico Providence RI USA

 

[Gunner 87]

3 hours ago, vvcherico said:

I believe he died in 1958

HI Vin.

Arthur Sydney Bates died on the 7th May 1958. You may have seen this photograph before but if not it is Arthur on the 20th May 1915.

I have had a good look through Find My Past which is linked to the British Newspaper Archive and am surprised there is no obituary or mention of Arthurs death considering how prominent he was. I haven't access to Ancestry newspapers so you may want to try there. 

Kind regards

Gunner 87

 

 

[vvcherico]

Thank You so much! Can you tell me where the original of this photograph is?  I would like to get permission to use it in an article.

Thanks again

Vin

[vvcherico]

Interestingly the only thing I have been able to find is a notice of the funeral service in the Daily Telegraph.

His death appears to have been an accident so maybe the family was unprepared to write a large obituary??

Any biographical info on the gentleman would be most appreciated thank you. 

Vin Cherico Prov. RI USA

[Gunner 87]

On 03/05/2023 at 10:35, vvcherico said:

Thank You so much! Can you tell me where the original of this photograph is?  I would like to get permission to use it in an article.

Thanks again

Vin

Hi Vin. The photograph was found on a public family tree at Ancestry. I will send you the details of the tree owner by pm. Gunner.

[Gunner 87]

This photograph has been shared via @35lancfusilers at twitter though belongs to the IWM. 

[vvcherico]

I believe the original of this photo is in the Imperial War Museum.

Thanks Vin

[vvcherico]

On 02/05/2023 at 23:15, Gunner 87 said:

HI Vin.

Arthur Sydney Bates died on the 7th May 1958. You may have seen this photograph before but if not it is Arthur on the 20th May 1915.

I have had a good look through Find My Past which is linked to the British Newspaper Archive and am surprised there is no obituary or mention of Arthurs death considering how prominent he was. I haven't access to Ancestry newspapers so you may want to try there. 

Kind regards

Gunner 87

 

 

I believe the original of this photo to be in the Green Jackets Rifle Museum

[Gunner 87]

Vin. If you hadn't seen it already this is Arthur's Medal Index Card.

[vvcherico]

On 09/02/2011 at 03:46, chrrip said:

Hi; this is my record of Arthur Bates from my nominal roll of LRB men and officers who crossed to France with the original 1st Battalion on 4.11.14. Bates was a crack shot in a regiment noted for its shooting. I do not know exactly what his illness was but strongly suspect he was worn out - Gommecourt affected him deeply. He was also 1st LRB commanding officer post war. Let me know if I can help (try) further

Chris

1/5th Bn. to France 4.11.14 – 15.8.16; OC ‘Q’ Coy 1905-1914: OC ‘4’ Coy 1914 to 7.1.15; 2i/c 8.1.15 – 15.3.15, Major 6.3.1915; T/Lt.Col 16.4.15; Lt.Col. 4.6.17commanded 1st Bn. 16.3.15 – 13.8.16; invalided UK 15.8.16; to command 3/5 Lancashire Fusiliers at Colchester 8.2.17; France 28.2.17; UK 7.1.18 to command 4 Bn. L.North Lancs. R. 23.1.18; disbanded Bn. 5.7.19; offered temporary command of a Spec. Res. Batt. in Ireland by GHQ but refused; Hons: DSO; Mentioned in Despatches x 4; French Croix de Guerre with palm; T.D.

( ed : Winchester; Pte. 1st VB Hants 14.11.1896-1.11.1898; joined LRB as 2/Lieut. 26.3.1900; Lieut. 13.11.1901; Capt.1905; LRB Gold Medallist 1906, 1909, 1913.; present at the unveiling of the LRB Memorial, London Rifle Brigade Cemetery, Ploegsteert, in 1927 )

DSO Lt/Col L.G. 23.6.15 wef 3.6.15 Birthday Hons (for 2nd Ypres)

LRB Record, Nov. 1919; ‘Regimental “Who’s Who”, Lieut-Colonel A. S. Bates, D.S.O.,T.D.;

‘Lieut-Colonel A S Bates, DSO, TD, who was appointed to the temporary command of the LRB on July 1st this year, was born in 1879.

Before joining the LRB, he served for two years in the ranks of the 1st V.B. Hants. Regt. Resigning as a private when he left Winchester. He joined the Brigade in 1900, being gazetted 2nd Lieut. on March 26th, and posted to ‘B’ Company under Captain E G Stenson Cooke. He was promoted Lieut. on November 13th, 1901, being posted to ‘N’ Company on June 12th 1915, and taking over command on promotion to Captain on November 25th of the same year. In May 1906, ‘N’ Company was absorbed by ‘E’, and Captain Bates was transferred to the command of ‘Q’ which he held until it was amalgamated with ‘H’ in France on November 24th 1914, to make No. 4 Company. He held command of the latter till January 7th 1915.

From January 8th till March 15th he was Second in Command to Lord Cairns, and took over command of the Battalion on March 16th, when the C.O. had unfortunately to leave owing to ill-health. Promoted Major on March 6th, and temporary Lieut.-Colonel on April 16th, he commanded the 1st Battalion through the second battle of Ypres, the period spent at G.H.Q., at St. Eloi with the 3rd Division, and at Gommecourt with the 56th Division.

He was invalided home on August 15th, handing over command to Major R H Husey, M.C., two days earlier. After a period of sick leave at home, he was offered the command of the 3/5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, then at Colchester preparing for overseas. Loth as he was, even temporarily, to sever his links with the LRB, he accepted this, and took the Battalion to France on February 28th 1917, in the 66th Division. He commanded it at Givenchy, on the sea coast ( where at one time he had three battalions under him on coast defence under the immediate command of the French ) and at Passchendaele. His permanent promotion to the rank of Lieut.-Colonel was dated June 4th 1917.

On January 7th 1918, he was sent home on the understanding that he was to become an instructor at the Senior Officers’ School at Aldershot. There being, however, no vacancy, he was given the command on January 23rd of the 4th ® Battalion Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, stationed at Oswestry. The Battalion was sent to Dublin during the scare in April, 1918, and it remained there until disbanded by col. Bates on July 7th this year. Prior to the latter date he was offered the temporary command of a Special Reserve Battalion in Ireland, but, having made other arrangements, was unable to accept it.

He was awarded the D.S.O. to date from June 3rd 1915; has been mentioned in despatches four times, holds the T.D. and the French Croix de Guerre with palm.

Always keen on rifle shooting, Colonel bates has won first prizes at Bisley on several occasions. He won the King’s Bronze Medal in 1907. He has been Adjutant of several International Teams, and was captain of the British Team which won the Empire Trophy this year. He has shot for England in the Twenty and Mackinnon Matches, and was for three years hon. sec. of the English Twenty Club. he won the Regimental Gold Medal three times.

His hobby outside the regiment is philately, and he is a Fellow and Member of the Council of the Royal Philatelic Society, London. He is on the Livery of the Merchant Taylors.’

Dear Chris, The information above regarding his involvement in the Merchant Taylors came from where? I found the stuff about the stamp collecting in the DSO book but would love to know your source regarding the Merchant Taylors . Thanks Vin

[Michelle Young]

@chrrip hasn’t visited the forum for a few months, with any luck, my tag will alert them to your post. 

[vvcherico]

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

@chrrip hasn’t visited the forum for a few months, with any luck, my tag will alert them to your post. 

Thank You!

[chrrip]

Hi Vin

The info is in an article inthe  LRB Record, Nov. 1919; ‘Regimental “Who’s Who”, Lieut-Colonel A. S. Bates, D.S.O.,T.D./ the Record was the journal of the London Rifle Brigade

cheers

Chris

[vvcherico]

Thank You!! I will see if I can hunt down a copy. If you have a copy could you scan it and the front cover so I can be sure to cite it correctly.

Thanks Vin