The good soldier Adolf!

[Guest redrum]

Was Hitler a brave soldier or a shirker in the war. He was a company runner and some biographies record him as a brave man for being this others a coward as it was an easy touch. Surely as a despatch runner between the trench systems often under fire he must have had some guts. He wore an Iron Cross 1st class on his coat in WW2 was he entitled to this for his merits in the Great War?

[bkristof]

This is what i know:

he did much effort to get an iron cross, he volunteered as runner to look for danger to get his iron cross (We were better of that he had a wooden one).

At Wijtschate, Croonaert wood he even "jumped" in front of a bullet to save his commander. He was recommended but he didn't get it due to circumstances, lost info + the recommender died whitour others to witness.

He was not SO brave at all... he just was very ambitious.

[Guest redrum]

How come the bullet didnt kill the swine? Was he wounded or was he wearing his lucky swastika that day?

[bkristof]

i am not sure about details, but as far as i remember he was then transported to Messines to the field hospital, so he was wounded...

[Dave_59]

Wasnt he gassed (just before his bat. was due to be moved to the eastern front... He was in hospital (blinded temporarily) when the armistice was completed.

Dave

[Guest stevenbec]

I don't want to go into his later history but his WWI service is then same as any other soldier on all sides of the war.

What you a glory seeker others may call something else.

That he was a brave man is clearly shown by his awards and without the propergader he did his job well and was a very good soldier.

As for meeting his death on the Battle field, he had the same chance as any other during that war, he never hid from it or got a easy job away from the front and maybe it was his terrible expirences there that purhaps changed this simple man into the monster he became.

If you read Junger you can see the thinking of some soldiers on the other side of the line. They all weren't men such as Sassoon.

Just a thought

S.B

[Guest redrum]

I can agree on most of what you say S.B. but I think the seeds of evil were sown in this man before his war experiences. Millions experienced battlefield horrors but didnt go on to do what he did. You would think the reverse would be the fact, to ensure such horrors were never perpetrated again, especially if you were in a position like he was later on, governing a big industrial country.

Regards,

[Guest stevenbec]

Yes Mate,

The idea of defending AH was not what I was after.

But only to show that he did his job well as any soldier and by his medals did it very well.

Of cause I am not saying that because of his war expirence he became what he did but I also feel it affected him very badly. His expirences did control his later thinking as it did for many other men after that war.

The Italian bloke also was a vetern of the Great War and did suffer which effected him to do what he did.

So can we not say that the war effected them to gain power and to put there countries back the honour so lost during WWI. Or to their mind set anyway.

S.B

[andigger]

I think it makes sense that there are some who see the horrors of war and act never to repeat them. That was part of the underlying logic behind appeasement. There are others who become in thralled by the violence, and only feel comfortable in combat. Hitler could certianly be put in that catagory. Timothy McVeigh was a Gulf War veteran, saw death and destruction, but had no qualms about blowing up the day care center. Its cliche, but war affects everyone in very different ways. Andy

[Landsturm]

I saw this one documentary on this subject. It`s just that his service is quite a mystery. I think he was just a regular soldier, no hero. I haven`t heard of him saving commander from a bullet but it`s known that he never made it higher than Gefreiter (corporal) and got "baptised" somewhere in Flanders 1914. And he was wounded in leg at Somme September 1916, got temporarely blinded by mustard gas in September or October of 1918 and spent the rest of the war in hospital. According to Nigel Thomas`s book "German Army in World War I 1914-15" he served as a volunteer in 16th Bavarian Reserve Inf. Regiment (6th Reserve Division).

[AOK4]

Hello,

I helped making the documentary 'The Making of Hitler' for the BBC and 'Gefreiter Hitler'.

It is known that Hitler really was a 'hero' in WW1. He received several medals and recommandations for bravery under fire. I've seen his service record and it is quite remarkable. There were not that many ordinary soldiers who got the Iron Cross 1st Class.

Hitler was entitled to the IC2 for the first time in November 1914 when he saved the life of his officer, but because he got killed later, his IC2 was not given (you needed an officer who testified what you did in those days). Hitler continued to volunteer to do things so that his fellow runners who had families would not run any danger.

He never got promoted beyond Gefreiter because his officers said he didn't have leadership capabilities.

Regards,

Jan

[Guest redrum]

He did it seems have good human qualities at that stage in his life.

[BeppoSapone]

Hitler was entitled to the IC2 for the first time in November 1914 when he saved the life of his officer, but because he got killed later, his IC2 was not given (you needed an officer who testified what you did in those days). Hitler continued to volunteer to do things so that his fellow runners who had families would not run any danger.

Didn't Hitler have a child, born to a Belgian mother? Maybe that is just a myth, but I have seen it in print "Hitler has only got one ....son"

[enoch beard]

didnt hilter like to mention his 1st ww service because his awards was recommended by a jewish officer?

enoch

[bkristof]

he had even jewish blood in him !!!

[DirtyDick]

Always found an obvious paradox about the Nazis. Espousing the qualities of physical fitness and sturdy, Aryan man- and womanhood, most of the leading Nazi figureheads hardly fitted the bill (poss. only Hess did so).

Hitler - short, portly, plagued by health problems and with dark features; Goering, obese and for a time a drug addict; Goebbels - dark haired and, I believe, called the 'Poisoned Dwarf' because of his stature; and the myopic, slightly-built chicken farmer Himmler.

Even Rohm of the SA had let himself go and was supposedly also a pederast (although this is debatable since the Nazis wanted shot of him).

Some people just have no sense of irony!

Richard

[Landsturm]

I prefer extracting Hitler`s part in Great War from what he did in Second World War. This "saving officer" issue was interesting, hadn`t heard of it earlier. And I do know Hitler was decorated with bronze Wound Badge, Iron Cross 1st (and 2nd Class?), Bavarian Military Cross 3rd Class with swords and a Regimental Certificate.

[PhilB]

Quote from AOK4:-

He never got promoted beyond Gefreiter because his officers said he didn't have leadership capabilities.

Well, were they right or wrong? Phil B

[redbarchetta]

I would say they were right. Not a big expert on WW2, but it seems to me many instances where they could have 'turned' the course of the war but for the insular. control-freak mentality of AH, e.g. the Panzer divisions that could have wiped out the BEF at Dunkirk, the use of jets as observer planes instead of fighters etc. This is not leadership, this is dictatorship.

Just reading a book on Richtofen at the moment, and his early obsession with doing 'whatever it took' to get himself an Iron Cross sound very similar to AH's attitude. Perhaps this is simply something in the phsyche of German schooling ?

Clearly AH's later political successes show his post-war attitude was also felt by a large number of other Germans, he just had the oratory ability to whip up the fervour needed for his powerbase, - i.e. they should have won first time round, but for the top brass, infiltrated by Jews, giving in and throwing it all away.

[Guest dinkidi]

Thought the terms of the Treaty of Versailles might have assisted his cause!

Pat

[CROONAERT]

Hitler - short, portly, plagued by health problems and with dark features; Goering, obese and for a time a drug addict; Goebbels - dark haired and, I believe, called the 'Poisoned Dwarf' because of his stature; and the myopic, slightly-built chicken farmer Himmler.

Not wishing to defend the Nazi hierarchy, but Hitler had piercing blue eyes, Goering more than fitted the bill in his younger days, Goebbels' features were due to childhood polio (club foot) and Himmler - well I can't defend Himmler, he reminds me too much of "Walter" from "Dennis the Menice" in the Beano!!!

One who more than fits the bill (and still sends shivers down my spine when I see photos of him) was the Olympic fencer and allround sportsman and "perfect gentleman" , Reinhardt Heidrich, possibly the most dangerous and evil man in Nazi Germany. (Even he was reputed to have a Jewish bloodline!).

I have no doubt that Herr Hitler was a good (though introverted) and brave soldier during WW1 (and I find this period one of the most interesting in "Mein Kampf") - he even admits to admiring his Jewish officer (I forget his name - Kpt. Meier???), but I believe that the "monster" was born in the gutters of Vienna and Munich before the war, not in the trenches.

Dave.

[BeppoSapone]

but I believe that the "monster" was born in the gutters of Vienna and Munich before the war, not in the trenches.

Dave.

I agree. There was a strong tradition of anti-semitism in parts of Europe even before WW1. The "ideas" of people like the Compte de Gobineau and Houston Stewart Chamberlain et al, were widely held to be correct.

When the young Hitler was starving in Vienna the Mayor was a rabid anti-semite called Karl Lueger. Hitler didn't make up all his crazy ideas, just listened to others.

It is just too easy to blame Hitler for what happened to the Jews, Romany etc. However, I believe that if Hitler killed instead of blinded on 14th October 1918 someone else would have done exactly what he did. Maybe one of the Strasser brothers?

The conditions were right for centuries of hate to reach their conclusion.

[PhilB]

Redbarchetta:- Agreed H was less than ideal as a national dictator! But surely he would have made a good leader at regimental level? Phil B

[Frank_East]

As I see it Hitler as a Great War soldier was no different to any other front line soldier.He certainly thought more of Imperial Germany than the Habsburg Empire having fought for Germany.He was a ready made volunteer possibily influenced by Bismark's 2nd Reich which saw a growth in German nationalism and militarism. He was charged by the Austrians of having evaded military service but was excused military duty because of ill health.He preferred to serve the Kaiser.

There have been many documentaries on Hitler,each revealing more and more of this complex dictator.I do not think that there is much more we can learn about him.However I remember a recent documentary which gave evidence that in addtion to being a loner, he was given to homosexuality at the front.The evidence came from one of his group.Apparently his lack of interest in females was his fear of VD.

Had he been able to disengage himself from the problems of post war Germany and what he considered his destiny,took up a trade or profession and married,he might have never have appeared on the stage of European history. He would have been as so many who went back home happy and content to pick up the threads of their lives.

It is strange that the Weimar Republic did not deport Hitler (after the civil strive he caused in Bavaria) when his imprisonment term in Landsberg was completed.He stayed on in Germany and never requested German citizenship. He always thought that Germany would confer citizenship on him an account of his war service to Imperial Germany.As an illegal immigrant of his era he had to apply for German citizenship to hold office as Chancellor.No doubt such was his polical clout as the NAZIs flourished that he could not be refused.

Regarding anti semitism, it had been rife in Europe since the middle ages and had also been active in Britain.There was an upsurge in it throughout the 19th century paricularly in Russia and Eastern Europe.It resulted in the Jews being possibly the best emigrants to the US.Certainly Hitler was exposed to anti semitism in Vienna.

The path to anti semitism for Hitler was relatively easy,it needed no seduction.The Frenchman Gobineau wrote his "Essay on the Inequality of the Human Race " and this appeared to be the catalyst for upsurge in anti semitism after its publication between 1853 and 1855.Gobineau's racial theories were quickly taken up by the Germans and Gobineau societies were soon established throughout Germany. Gobineau however had made a deep impression on one Richard Wagner the composer.He was to have a profound influence on Hitler and from his earliest days,Hitler worshipped Wagner and his music.

Houston Stewart Chamberlain,once described as the strangest Englishman ever appeared on the continental scene.An Englishman given to bouts of "demons"and whose first language was French wrote "Foundations of the Nineteenth Century"which was published in 1898.Chamberlain pronounced he had found the basis of civilisation,it was race.Hitler was enthralled with Chamberlain and his theories and having met at Bayreuth in 1923,Hitler used Chamberlain's racial theories in his "Mein Kampf".It has been said that Chamberlain who had been drawn into the Wagner family by marrying Richard's daughter Eva was the spiritual leader of the Third Reich.

Chamberlain even had the Kaiser enthralled.The Kaiser was an an avid reader of his racial theories and was reputed to have declared to Chamberlain,"you wield your pen ;I, my tongue and my broad sword".Such was their relationship that Chamberlain became a naturalized German citizen in 1916 and was awarded the Iron Cross by the Kaiser.

Apparently Chamberlain became depressed and disillusioned by Germany's defeat but was uplifted on meeting Hitler for the first time."You have mighty things to do" he told Hitler.

Incidentally I cannot see much evidence of the Strasser brothers having anti semitic inclinations although they were quickly removed from the scene.Gregor was murdered on 30 June 1934 along with many others and Otto fled to the US.I think the Strasser brothers were too non conformist for Hitler and his party.

Regards

Frank East

[Ali Hollington]

Its there a story that a british soldier (I think a VC winner) had the chance to kill Hitler during WW1 but decided to let him run off instead?

Ali