DCM

[agregco]

Some advice if possible please. My Grandfather was awarded the DCM in the 1st WW , I have what I thought was his original medal which was given to me by my father before he died.

Last week I spotted the medal being sold on Ebay, I contacted the seller who assured me that he thought he had the original. My grandfathers rank when awarded the medal was Gunner Sgt, on the rim of the medal I have the inscription is number, G.N.R. name, R.F.A. there is nothing else on the rim, no R which I believe is put on a replacement medal if issued.

The one being sold on Ebay the seller has told me has the rank is SGT on the rim, not the G.N.R. which I presume means gunner.

Would anybody have any idea why mine has the G.N.R, on rather than the Sgt. and could mine not be an original ?

Look forward to a reply

Thanks Greg

[Piorun]

Give us his name and number, Greg, so that we can check the existing documentation for clues. Otherwise, we're just speculating. Antony

[agregco]

Thanks for the reply Antony, my Grandfathers details are

57728 sgt. J.R Codling RFA Gateshead. On the citation his rank is Sgt but on his medal card his rank is gunner sgt I could attach the card if that is allowed on the forum and if that would help.

Thanks again

Greg

Give us his name and number, Greg, so that we can check the existing documentation for clues. Otherwise, we're just speculating. Antony

[Piorun]

Bit puzzled, Greg. One of your g/f's MIC's states that he was RGA, not RFA, and the card shows his rank as Sjt (serjeant - sometimes spelled sergeant). The other card shows his rankS as "gunner", "Sgt" and "2/Lt". There is no rank "Gunner Sergeant" the two are separate. The second card shows his number with a prefix of A93 and then lists C400 against his rank of 2/Lt. However, it clearly notes with an "*" that his DCM was issued to him when he was a sergeant. You will need an expert on cards to sort this out. The second card contains a mine of information. Antony

[scottmarchand]

can you post of picture of the edge of your medal and the naming and the one on ebay - that will help, do you have his other medals? Is it possible that your medal is the replacement, it wasn't unheard of for servicemetn to sell medals and then petition for replacemnts later. Typically replacement medals weren't consistently noted with an 'r' until after the second world war. your G/F's name is not a common one so I can't imagine that it is a mater of two close but distinct awards to different people.

[IPT]

Here's the one that was recently sold;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WWI-DCM-Sgt-Codling-66-Bty-RFA-2-Lieut-from-Gateshead_W0QQitemZ280614261115QQihZ018QQcategoryZ13966QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[agregco]

Thanks for that Antony, I have just looked at the card again and you are right it is gunner, sgt then 2/lt. also the asterisk is against the sgt .Strange really, I am wondering if he was a gunner when the action happened. Not sure about the second card Antony perhaps you could tell me where that is. I only have that one which I bought from the Archives.

Thanks again for your help it was just strange seeing it on Ebay I never dream't that there would be another medal, perhaps mine is the copy, if you google my grandfather it is still there, on Ebay but sold !

Greg [Codling]

Bit puzzled, Greg. One of your g/f's MIC's states that he was RGA, not RFA, and the card shows his rank as Sjt (serjeant - sometimes spelled sergeant). The other card shows his rankS as "gunner", "Sgt" and "2/Lt". There is no rank "Gunner Sergeant" the two are separate. The second card shows his number with a prefix of A93 and then lists C400 against his rank of 2/Lt. However, it clearly notes with an "*" that his DCM was issued to him when he was a sergeant. You will need an expert on cards to sort this out. The second card contains a mine of information. Antony

[agregco]

I will post a couple of pictures tomorrow if that is ok I have just realised that they can only be 100k max so will have to resize them and I haven't the software on this computer.

Thanks again every one for the replies

Greg

can you post of picture of the edge of your medal and the naming and the one on ebay - that will help, do you have his other medals? Is it possible that your medal is the replacement, it wasn't unheard of for servicemetn to sell medals and then petition for replacemnts later. Typically replacement medals weren't consistently noted with an 'r' until after the second world war. your G/F's name is not a common one so I can't imagine that it is a mater of two close but distinct awards to different people.

[Stebie9173]

The Gazette shows him awarded the DCM as a Sergeant (though even that gets the RFA initials the wrong way round!)

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30664/supplements/5294

His Commission:

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31064/supplements/14695

Steve.

[rflory]

A DCM named to Sjt J. R. Codling in the same manner as the one for sale on eBay was lot #482 in Spink's auction of June 1992 and did not sell. It was then listed as Lot #5587 in Spink's Numismatic Circular of September 1992 for £140. Dick Flory

[Piorun]

Thanks for that Antony, I have just looked at the card again and you are right it is gunner, sgt then 2/lt. also the asterisk is against the sgt .Strange really, I am wondering if he was a gunner when the action happened. Not sure about the second card Antony perhaps you could tell me where that is. I only have that one which I bought from the Archives.

Thanks again for your help it was just strange seeing it on Ebay I never dream't that there would be another medal, perhaps mine is the copy, if you google my grandfather it is still there, on Ebay but sold !

Greg [Codling]

Send me a pm with your e-mail address and I'll forward copy. Antony

[agregco]

Thanks Dick

I believe the one on Ebay was sold at auction Dec. 2010

Greg

A DCM named to Sjt J. R. Codling in the same manner as the one for sale on eBay was lot #482 in Spink's auction of June 1992 and did not sell. It was then listed as Lot #5587 in Spink's Numismatic Circular of September 1992 for £140. Dick Flory

[agregco]

Hi ScotM

Attaching photo of medal and then post another one with with the inscription on the edge but it is not so easy

Greg

[agregco]

Tried to take a photo of the edge of the medal but unfortunately not had a lot of luck.

[Piorun]

This is an odd one. Just going on the appearance of the medal and your possession of it, I'd say that you have a genuine DCM that was issued to your g/f in 1918/19. However, the medal card clearly states that it was issued to a serjeant. All I can think of is that the medal was issued to your g/f originally showing his rank in error as "gunner" and then was re-issued with his correct rank, the original either not being recalled or not returned. Technically, there seems little doubt that you have your g/f's DCM - except that it's the "wrong" DCM according to the records. I'm wondering whether you, as "next of kin" have legal title to the one that was "sold" on e-bay. I would think that you do, although it might cost you something to prove it. Either way, it's something that ought to be sorted out. It might be worth approaching "the authorities". Good luck, Antony

[agregco]

Thanks very much for your help Antony, I would have never have thought that there could have been another medal. If I hadn't seen the one on Ebay and the chances of that must be quite remote, it was purely because I had some spare time and Google'd my G/F's name and it came up on Ebay.

I shall look further into it as you suggested.

Thanks again

Greg

This is an odd one. Just going on the appearance of the medal and your possession of it, I'd say that you have a genuine DCM that was issued to your g/f in 1918/19. However, the medal card clearly states that it was issued to a serjeant. All I can think of is that the medal was issued to your g/f originally showing his rank in error as "gunner" and then was re-issued with his correct rank, the original either not being recalled or not returned. Technically, there seems little doubt that you have your g/f's DCM - except that it's the "wrong" DCM according to the records. I'm wondering whether you, as "next of kin" have legal title to the one that was "sold" on e-bay. I would think that you do, although it might cost you something to prove it. Either way, it's something that ought to be sorted out. It might be worth approaching "the authorities". Good luck, Antony

[scottmarchand]

This is an odd one. Just going on the appearance of the medal and your possession of it, I'd say that you have a genuine DCM that was issued to your g/f in 1918/19. However, the medal card clearly states that it was issued to a serjeant. All I can think of is that the medal was issued to your g/f originally showing his rank in error as "gunner" and then was re-issued with his correct rank, the original either not being recalled or not returned. Technically, there seems little doubt that you have your g/f's DCM - except that it's the "wrong" DCM according to the records. I'm wondering whether you, as "next of kin" have legal title to the one that was "sold" on e-bay. I would think that you do, although it might cost you something to prove it. Either way, it's something that ought to be sorted out. It might be worth approaching "the authorities". Good luck, Antony

Um, actually NOK is meaningless in this instance, NOK is only relevant for claims of unissued medals and even this has limits and time frames for claims on awards. The medals were issued and possibly double issued or replaced - who knows. Someone in the family sold it or disposed of it as their personal property as is their right. Whatever teh opinion of subsequebt generations of the family abvout these actions, they have no legal standing unless they were actually stolen and recorded as such. No evidence or indication of that here.

What does the back of the MIC look like - can you post front and back?

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

This may help; I would suggest that the DCM you have is a replacement of later issue,mainly because it has a "Fixed Ball" suspension mount,used right through WW2 until the new type swivelling shoulder mounted type [ie:NO clasp mounting on the obverse & reverse of the top of the medal,the mount being directly rivetted onto the rim of the medal],of fixng was used in the reign of ERII WW1 issue DCMs have a Rivetted Swivelling Mount ,[sEE ILLUSTRATIONS BELOW in Post 18 & 19] I would suggest that the original was lost,stolen,etc; & an official {later 1920~40s} replacement obtained by him;so in effect there are TWO DCMs in circulation both genuine & both issued to Mr Codling,one the original award,the other a later replacement {the letters "R" & "D" were not impressed on all replacement/duplicate awards until much, much later} This would also explain the Rank discrepancy as the issuing clerk may not have realised from the MiCs for the Campaign Medals or DCM {The relevant Medal Index & DCM Index Cards may well show "replacement" on it} that it should have been "SJT" & was impressed "GNR" ~ again another indication of a later award.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

This is the earlier WW1 & previous type mounting::~~

NOTE THE RIVETTED SWIVELLING BALL MOUNTING

[agregco]

Thanks for the photo showing the earlier medal, I can see that there is a difference, I am attaching the back of my medal as requested. It is all very interesting but I think because it was all so very long ago it will be very difficult to find the correct answer. My grandfather also served in the second world war and ended up as a Major. I always remember my Dad saying that when he was a boy because his Dad was a bookmaker that sometimes they didn't know when the next meal was coming and then at other times they had so much. My dad never bet on the horses !! So therefore it could have been possible that my grandfather sold his medal in hard times.

Thanks to every one for their help

Greg

This is the earlier WW1 & previous type mounting::~~

NOTE THE RIVETTED SWIVELLING BALL MOUNTING

[Piorun]

Um, actually NOK is meaningless in this instance, NOK is only relevant for claims of unissued medals and even this has limits and time frames for claims on awards. The medals were issued and possibly double issued or replaced - who knows. Someone in the family sold it or disposed of it as their personal property as is their right. Whatever teh opinion of subsequebt generations of the family abvout these actions, they have no legal standing unless they were actually stolen and recorded as such. No evidence or indication of that here.

That really was my point, Scott, and why I put nok in quotes. I was suggesting that it might be worth exploring whether or not the other medal had indeed been obtained improperly. While there is no evidence offered that it was, equally there is no evidence offered that it wasn't. We have no evidence whatsoever that "a family member legally disposed of it as was their right". As a legal nok (i.e. nearest surviving family member), my personal approach would be to dig deeper, whether through "the authorities" or the family. Cheers, Antony

[Piorun]

This may help; I would suggest that the DCM you have is a replacement of later issue, mainly because it has a "Fixed Ball" suspension mount,used right through WW2 until the new type swivelling shoulder mounted type [ie:NO clasp mounting on the obverse & reverse of the top of the medal,the mount being directly rivetted onto the rim of the medal],of fixng was used in the reign of ERII

I'm a bit confused, Harry. All the medal pictures in this thread, and the picture on *-bay, seem to show the mounting being rivetted through the upper face of the medal. In other words, I can't see any difference between them. Also, the *-bay medal is to "Sgt" not "Sjt" which suggests that it is the later medal (although that is later subject to possible change by the "Sgt" on his second IC). Also, there is nothing on the second or first MIC for Codling to suggest replacement or return of his DCM. As I mentioned in post #4, it clearly shows his medals being issued to "Sgt". Ther is some entry relevant to clasps and rose, but not to replacement. Can you please elucidate - or am I, as usual, missing something in old age? Cheers, Antony

[Andrew Upton]

I'm a bit confused, Harry. All the medal pictures in this thread, and the picture on *-bay, seem to show the mounting being rivetted through the upper face of the medal. In other words, I can't see any difference between them.

You need to look a bit higher Anthony - it's the bit just above where the disc is rivetted to the suspender that the swivelling/non-swivelling difference can be observed. Here's a direct comparison of the two medals:

http://postimage.org/image/2ao5o9538/

The one on the left is the non-swivelling type. Note the ball part is solid and round. On this the suspender and three footed part is constructed as one piece.

The one on the right is the swivelling type. Just above the ball an extra bit can be observed. This is basically the top part of a seperate post that runs through the ball and has the three-footed part at the other end that is rivetted to the disc, and thus allows the disc part to be turned round. An unnecessary piece of frippery, hence it's later removal. Hope that's a bit clearer.

[Piorun]

Thanks, Andrew. Excellent lesson in seeing, not just looking, and I appreciate the new knowledge, too. I can't believe that I used to hold a marksman's badge!! Still leaves us with a real puzzle if a replacement was issued to a 2L/t who had been a Serjeant (or sergeant) and was stamped Gunner - unless, in some odd quirk of reverse snobbery, he preferred it to be that way. Even so, still no record of a replacement medal on his cards. Cheers, Antony

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

...Still leaves us with a real puzzle if a replacement was issued to a 2L/t who had been a Serjeant (or sergeant) and was stamped Gunner -

Antony

I expect, though if there is no evidence of correspondence marked on the MiC OR the DCM Index card [ie a date stamp,etc;]that the Replacement issuing Clerk failed to notice the x & dots mark {what do they call that thingy again?}on the MiC that he merrily instructed the Mint to name it as "GNR",as denoted at the top of the MiC,the only explanation really.

It would seem that the medal was disposed of at some stage,either by the Recipient or their Relatives or was stolen & found its way onto the Market being bought & sold a few times over the Years {from its previous sightings,its existence oblivious to Major Codling's family.} & He obtained a replacement possibly from its appearance & suspension mounting when he served in WW2 or after to wear at that time...?

HB

PS just to confuse you all further pre WW1 & the early [to around 1916 IIRC] WW1 DCMs had a small "Step" on the reverse rim edge,later types & those following had just a single edge rim...[see the Ball type reverse above in post 20] & this early example....

Edited 3 February , 2011 by HarryBettsMCDCM