19th Battalion London Regiment

[Ourfamily]

Dear Friends,

It's been a while since I contacted the Forum - I hope you are all well!! I am tracing, for a friend, the very short Service career of Lance Corporal Edward Thomas TOOLE who was killed in action on 15 September 1916. We have his Army history (from Ancestry.com) and his medal card. We also know where he is said to be buried. So, now I am trying to find out where he was on the day he was killed and what action was taking place on that day. Can any of you help please?

Very best wisjhes,

Richard

[johndavidswarbrick]

If the 19th Battalion London Regiment was the same as the 1/19th Battalion, [LLT seems to suggest that it is] then the war diary is available as a download from the National Archives - cost £3.50:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8199441&queryType=1&resultcount=20

Dave Swarbrick

[SWorrall]

Okay, there were 3 battalions of the 19th London, as for many battalions and Regiments.

3/19th were the at-home training battalion, as you would expect.

2/19th were in the 60th (2/2nd London) Division. In France at this time, but on their way to Salonika and didn't see action.

1/19th London were part of the 141st (5th London) Brigade, in the 47th (2nd London) Division.

On September 15th they were part of the historic Battle of Flers-Courcelette, which saw the first use of tanks in war.

The 47th Division cleared High Wood and suffered terrible losses in the process.

That's why the adjacent cemetery is called London cemetery (and the extension), which is where this man lies buried.

Have you checked CWGC and SDGW for this man?

Simon.

[Ourfamily]

Many thanks Dave and Simon - I think that will help enormously!!

Best wishes, Richard

[SWorrall]

4500 casualties in 4 days.

The reason was that the Corps commander, Pulteney, overrode the objections of the Division commander, Barter and his Brigadiers.

Pulteney insisted that a barrage was unnecessary since the Division would get direct support from the new wonder-weapon.

Barter went and looked at the ground and knew that tanks could never operate inside the shattered stumps of the Wood. He insisted on the preparatory bombardment.

But Pulteney pulled rank and over-ruled him, with the above being the result. The C.O. of 19/London, Lt.-Col. A.P. Hamilton, was KIA alongside his men, moving from a support trench to try and get the attack moving.

Barter was subsequently sacked for wanton disregard of his men's lives. many thought that Pulteney was to blame.

19/London were also known as the St. Pancras battalion.

One of their officers was Captain D. Henderson, son of the Labour Party leader (and future Nobel Peace Prize winner) Arthur Henderson.

He was KIA here and lies in the London cemetery.

By curious coincidence the son of Liberal leader and Prime Minister Raymond Asquith was KIA the same day fighting nearby with the Guards.

The Divisional memorial sits by the side of the road near Martinpuich.

Simon.

[Ourfamily]

4500 casualties in 4 days.

The reason was that the Corps commander, Pulteney, overrode the objections of the Division commander, Barter and his Brigadiers.

Pulteney insisted that a barrage was unnecessary since the Division would get direct support from the new wonder-weapon.

Barter went and looked at the ground and knew that tanks could never operate inside the shattered stumps of the Wood. He insisted on the preparatory bombardment.

But Pulteney pulled rank and over-ruled him, with the above being the result. The C.O. of 19/London, Lt.-Col. A.P. Hamilton, was KIA alongside his men, moving from a support trench to try and get the attack moving.

Barter was subsequently sacked for wanton disregard of his men's lives. many thought that Pulteney was to blame.

19/London were also known as the St. Pancras battalion.

One of their officers was Captain D. Henderson, son of the Labour Party leader (and future Nobel Peace Prize winner) Arthur Henderson.

He was KIA here and lies in the London cemetery.

By curious coincidence the son of Liberal leader and Prime Minister Raymond Asquith was KIA the same day fighting nearby with the Guards.

The Divisional memorial sits by the side of the road near Martinpuich.

Simon.

Simon - Thanks!!

Richard

[Perth Digger]

The 1/19th War Diary gives the following casualties for 15/9/16: O/Rs 66 killed, 211 wounded (5 subsequently DOW) and 16 missing. 11 officers killed.

Mike

[Longboat]

The Divisonal History of the 47th is available to read and download from here http://www.archive.org/details/47thlondondivisi00maudrich

Stuart

[River97]

The Service Records for Edward show that he served with A Company, 1/19th Battalion.

Oh, by the way, the 2/19th were still in France, near Vimy Ridge and did not leave until November. They saw a fair amount of action in France to which the cemeteries around Arras will attest.

Cheers Andy.

[Ourfamily]

Thanks All!

Richard

[Charles Fair]

Hello Richard, I assume that you know he is buried at London Cemetery, Longueval, just outside High Wood. I have a picture of his headstone if you would like it.

Cpl Toole was a pre-war member of the battalion. His regimental number of 1743 would mean that he enlisted in the first week of October 1913. He had been wounded at Loos on 25 Sept 1915.

My grandfather was 2 i/c of the 1/19th and took over after Lt Col Hamilton was killed. He clearly knew Cpl Toole who is mentioned in this article my grandfather wrote following a visit to the battlefields in April 1920: Old Haunts Revisited

I'm currently working on a book which includes my edited grandfather's letters from his time with the Battalion. Meanwhile, the book you should read for the definitive account of the action that day is The Hell They Called High Wood by Terry Norman.

I'm also working on a history of th 1/19th (a longer term project) and would be interested in anything you could tell me about Cpl Toole such as occupation. I haven't tried looking for his service record but from one of the posts above it appears that it survives.

Charles

[Ourfamily]

Hello Charles,

Many, many thanks for your response! We are undertaking the research for Edward TOOLE's nephew who is a work colleague of my wife. He is going to be absolutely delighted with your information and that provided with other members of the Forum over the past few days. I have printed Old Haunts Revisited and am sure he will be thrilled to read that your grandfather knew his Uncle by name!

Edward's Service History shows that he was a Cycle Messenger with the LNWR Railway at Euston Station and that his home address was 13 Little Drummond Street, London. My wife will ask his nephew, Mike, for other information about him. Do you want to give me your email address so that he - Mike - can contact you direct? (I think you can do this through the Forum but as personal information - you will know this I'm sure).

Is it possible that you could let me know when your book is completed? We are going to purchase a copy of The Hell They Called High Wood.

Very best wishes,

Richard

[markivee]

Hi.

I'm looking into William Neven KERR born in Saskatchewan, Canada.

he signed up with the Highland Light Infantry in London (Regimental Number 4328 & 331555 & 33455)

He is listed as having died on the 26th November 1918 - 2 weeks after armistice - is anyone able to say what the 19th were doing then ?

His service record seems to have gone in WW2 - can anyone point me at some war diaries or anything that might explain how/why he died.

All help very gratefully received.

Mark.

[Guest]

Good Evening 

my partners great uncle was called Edward Thomas Toole , and lived in Euston London. Would be the same as gentleman as your Edward? We are trying to locate his grave.