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Help with these cards


smac61
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I've narrowed down likely MIC's for my Grandfather to these 2.

I believe he enlisted with the 3/8 KLR in late 1915, Finished the war with the RE's and was wounded in Somme at some point.

Could both these cards be for the same man?

I would appreciate some help deciphering the information on these cards.

Thank you,

Sean

post-62860-083082000 1296082692.jpg

post-62860-009274300 1296082701.jpg

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Hi Sean,

I am no expert on MIC's but from what I can see they probably are for two different people but same name.

Neither card has entry date or theatre so cant be used to narrow the decision.

Also the lists for BWM and VM are different even though I believe they are normally listed for the parent regiment in this case the KLR.

A second MIC usually denotes another award maybe a 1914-15 star etc so really I would think they are different gentlemen.

As I stated I am no expert and I am sure edits will be made if I am a little tired and got things wrong.

Regards,

Simon.

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This seems to be the Royal Engineer Charles John McCarthy's service records linked below and shows place of birth as Ontario, Canada also he received the SWB (Silver War Badge) which means he was invalided out of the Army before the War ended.: -

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?MS_AdvCB=1&db=BritishArmyService&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=ms_r_db&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=mccarthy&gsln_x=XO&msbdy_x=1&msbpn_x=XO&msbpn__ftp_x=1&msrpn_x=XO&msrpn__ftp_x=1&msidy_x=1&gskw_x=1&_F0003C18=233166&dbOnly=_F0003C18%7C_F0003C18_x&_F0003C18_x=1&dbOnly=_F0003CA3%7C_F0003CA3_x&_F0003CA3_x=1&81004241__date_x=1&uidh=000

The Man in the 1st card number seems to come from a batch allocated to the 8th Bn King's in 1917.

Can I ask where you got your info from? Also have you focused on these 2 cards because his middle initial was J? the latter is a common mistake as in many cases middle names were not listed on Medal Cards.

To get answers you will need to post as much info as you have, date and place of birth, where he was living etc.

Sam

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Hello Sam,

What I know is in this thread:

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=158692

Most of the details are in the 5th post.

Having recently gained access to the ancestory database I was hoping to look at a few of the cards myself and fill in some of the blanks.

Thank you,

Sean

Can I ask where you got your info from? Also have you focused on these 2 cards because his middle initial was J?

the latter is a common mistake as in many cases middle names were not listed on Medal Cards.

To get answers you will need to post as much info as you have, date and place of birth, where he was living etc.

Sam

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I think this is the card you are looking for.

It doesn't explain the 3/8 Kings Liverpool postcard in the other thread though!

I cant thank you folks enough for taking the time to look at all this stuff, it must get old...

What is it about this card that makes it more likely my person?

Also, is there a resource online where I can decode the "roll" information?

I'm new to this so please bear with me,

Sean

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For information on the Rolls follow the advice at the top of the page where there is an illustration of the roll and interpreting medal cards

http://www.1914-1918...ndad/medals.htm

The Rolls are not available online. (see below)

The card above fulfils two of the criteria in your other thread in that this soldier was in the RE and the RFA however the name is spelt differently from that on the cards you posted - so I'm not so sure, then anything I say comes with the usual health warning and is simply for you to consider and draw your own conclusions.

As for the other cards you posted

The first one is for a Liverpool Regiment soldier was originally in the Territorial Force and the numbering fits with the 8th Bn.

see http://www.1914-1918...ng_infantry.htm

Men were recruited into the TF until 1916 so he could easily have joined in 1915, the TF tended to recruit locally. He could also have been a pre-war member . Basic family history clues can be gleaned from his dateof birth and marital status for example the minimum age for the TF was 17. Also older, married men without previous military service tended to go into the TF, this is a generalisation but men aged between 19 and 30 were more likely to sign up for General Service for the duration of the war, i.e. Kitcheners or the 'New Army'.

The 3/8th was a Reserve Bn, but the man on this card definitely did go overseas so perhaps with the 1/8th or 2/8th (?)

As neither card has the entry date it can be inferred both soldiers went overseas after the 1st January 1916.

Both medals for the Royal Engineer were returned, which usually means they were sent to the address given on demobilisation and he was no longer there.

He was invalided out of the Army as he was awarded the Silver War Badge. This is confirmed by his service record and the correspondence therein where he asks to return to Canada and where he also claims to be 65 in 1919 (and 54 on enlistment?) so probably not your grandfather. The medals would have been sent out 1921/2/3 so he was probably no longer in the UK.

If a soldier served in two regiments it is normally shown as on the card posted by IPT, it is possible but rare there are duplicate cards but these are invariably cross referenced. (Though as with any admin system anything is possible)

There is no way to decode the 'roll information' on the cards online the best you can do is look at the prefix, e.g. in the examples above R.E. or RFA means the medals are recorded on rolls relating to those regiments. The numbers have no relevance other than to indicate which Roll (or book) the soldier can be found in. Essentially to examine the rolls you need to visit the National Archives at Kew, you can do a search online before you go,

The result of the Liverpool Regt search is here

http://www.nationala...1.y=0&image1=GO

and information on how to make a search is here

http://www.nationala...line/medals.asp

then you get your hands on the roll and look up the page reference you have.

Ken

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I thought that was the correct card because of this;

In the other thread, it states;

Charles McCarthy, serial no. 265122

Army, Royal Engineers Grade; Gunner

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I thought that was the correct card because of this;

In the other thread, it states;

Charles McCarthy, serial no. 265122

Army, Royal Engineers Grade; Gunner

How could I doubt it...smile.gif

Ken

EDIT It is possible he transferred from the 3/8th Liverpool to the RE ( via the truck company) and as he went overseas with them there is no reason for the Liverpool Regt to be shown on the card. I don't think the spelling is a problem given the number of variations in my family!

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Sean

The info on your post #5 on the thread you linked to changes everything, If that info is 100% connected with your Grandfather then the Medal Card in post #5 on this thread is definately his, as Ken pointed out the 3/8th KLR didn't leave the UK and if someone transferred prior to serving in a War Zone, the first Unit and Number on his Medal Card would be the one he arrived in Theatre with, prior units are not listed.

The reference to Scammel in his card may explain the reason he was RE then RA, for the heavier artillery, there would be mechanised heavy transport, something Scammel specialise in to this day, it's possible that he started off with the RE's transporting the guns and later this responsibility passed to the RA hence the transfer.

Many new technical advances in the Military would first come under control of the RE's as they were seen as the technical branch of the Army then a seperate Corps would emerge e.g. RE Air Bn became the RFC in 1912 then RAF, Royal Corps of Signals came from the RE Signals Units in 1920 and the RE's were a big thrust in the development of the Tank Corps, it's possible he was involved in tracked transport, that'd explain the connection, the link below shows what I mean: -

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/HoltTractorFrontviewAnd8inchHowitzer.jpg&imgrefurl=http://reference.findtarget.com/search/Half-track/&usg=__Cv-ou8wY8xrhIOneHGzVDAcM_O0=&h=496&w=600&sz=153&hl=en&start=74&zoom=1&tbnid=63hie8Gy2FmR6M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=155&ei=d5ZCTZMjhbPiBtayoFs&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtowed%2Bartillery%2Bww1%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rlz%3D1T4ADBF_en-GBGB243GB244%26biw%3D1003%26bih%3D558%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=516&oei=ZpZCTe6-OdCZhQeq3qW3AQ&esq=7&page=6&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:74&tx=74&ty=35

Do you know if he worked with vehicles in the US prior to the War?

Sam

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The reference to Scammel in his card may explain the reason he was RE then RA, for the heavier artillery, there would be mechanised heavy transport, something Scammel specialise in to this day, it's possible that he started off with the RE's transporting the guns and later this responsibility passed to the RA hence the transfer.

Many new technical advances in the Military would first come under control of the RE's as they were seen as the technical branch of the Army then a seperate Corps would emerge e.g. RE Air Bn became the RFC in 1912 then RAF, Royal Corps of Signals came from the RE Signals Units in 1920 and the RE's were a big thrust in the development of the Tank Corps, it's possible he was involved in tracked transport, that'd explain the connection, the link below shows what I mean: -

http://www.google.co...:74&tx=74&ty=35

Do you know if he worked with vehicles in the US prior to the War?

Sam

I was told he was a tool maker by the time he went to England, but he was only 20 years old, so I had my doubts. I suppose he could have gained the experience with his U.S. service (Co "I" 6th Infantry 1912-1915) which became valuable during war time? Grandmother and Dad used to tell me he was assigned to the "secret tank production" when it was discovered he had tool maker experience...

I made the mistake of leaving that tidbit out because it seemed fanciful to me, I should have mentioned it.

Thank you

Sean

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I think this is the card you are looking for.

It doesn't explain the 3/8 Kings Liverpool postcard in the other thread though!

Would it be useful to me to order a copy of the medal rolls for this card? I believe this would be them, below.

I'd like to confirm the MIC and perhaps gain some more information about my grandfathers service...

WO 329/182icon-info-trans.gifRoyal Field Artillery other ranks: medal rolls RFA/320B; RFA/321B. Pages 44090-44395. British War Medal and Victory Medal.1914-1920

Thanks,

Sean

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