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After a break of several years, I am trying to complete a set ot portraits/ photos of the officers who went to France 11/13 Aug 1914 with 2nd RWF.

There are a handful only to find, and help would be greatly appreciated.

In short, Edwin Tudor Jones, son of General Turner Jones

Llewellyn Sydney Lloyd

Richard Gordon Fabian Anderson

I cannot even get a sniff of family whereabouts, no lead at all.

Jones was killed, the other two survived.

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Re Llewellyn Sydney Lloyd. In Births, Deaths etc there is one of that name died 1970, Surrey South Western area (no Year Quarter shown), His birth given as 7/12/1985. 1901 Census for Flintshire shows that name , one year out in age, in Mold Rural, address of Hafod Hall.The family look prosperous albeit he is a 'nephew' there. Haven't got access to 1911 to see where he is then

Flintshire Archives have a card for all their men who served. It may be worth making contact with them to see if there is anything on this particular Llewelyn Sydney Lloyd that would link him to your query.

http://www.flintshire.gov.uk/wps/portal/english/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hDExNX50BXI0P30BAnAyNjYxM3I39TYwMDA6B8pFm8QYifv7GhmYmhhamhuYGnRaize1BooKGFnykB3eEg-_DrB8vjAI4G-n4e-bmp-gW5EQZZJo6KACxv9OI!/dl3/d3/L0lDU0lKSWdrbUEhIS9JRFJBQUlpQ2dBek15cXchLzRCRWo4bzBGbEdpdC1iWHBBRUEhLzdfMTQ0RUNRRTIxR1VUQjAyMzM0RjJPNTMwMDcvRFVKOmE4MDI5MDA1Mg!!/?WCM_PORTLET=PC_7_144ECQE21GUTB02334F2O53007_WCM&WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/web+content/flintshire/english/services/100009/200111/record+office+-+contact+details+and+opening+hours

That's one huge link. Hope it works.Otherwise google Flintshire Record Office Hawarden

Hywyn

PS. Might as well also ask about the other two just in case they're from that county.

edit: I see the link has shrunk down to a few words. It was five lines when I pasted it.

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In Births there is Llewelyn Sidney Lloyd registered 1st Qtr 1987 at Flintshire. No sign of the 1885 or any likely looking WW1 man one so looks promising (It's entirely possible he may have been actually registerd the following month albeit this is a year out here. Source for the d o b in the death report could be wrong by a year-it happens)

Spellings are as per document I read and wild cards used to cover all spellings.

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Only two Llewelyn Lloyds in Flintshire that I can see on the 1911 census - both aged 26 with an estimated year of birth of 1885: one from a mining family and place of birth given as "Bagillt Flint", the other an elementary school teacher (born "Flint Flintshire"), father William a chlorate maker. There are two other possible candidates, although both younger, with estimated birth years of 1888 and 1889, who have moved away from the area.

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I'm hoping it may show an Army connection as well as the Flintshire one.

He was in in 1905

LG 23/5/1905

Brd Battalion, The Royal Welsh Fusiliers; Llewellyn

Sidney Lloyd, Gent., (late Lieutenant,

2nd Volunteer Battalion, The Royal Welsh

Fusiliers) to be Lieutenant. Dated 24th

May, 1905.

Hywyn

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Gentlemen, thank you for your efforts so far:

this from my book:

4.11 Lieutenant Llewellyn Sydney Lloyd was one of the officers posted on mobilisation from 3 [special Reserve] Battalion RWF to 2RWF. His commission was dated 28 May 1903 and his seniority as a Special Reserve Lieutenant dated from 24 May 1905. The Army List shows that he was qualified for a Captaincy. He became junior subaltern in A Company, commanding IV Platoon and seems to have made little impact for good or ill in the short time he served, not being mentioned in TWTIK. He became a Captain 19 October 1914 [many vacancies in 3RWF had been caused by war losses, promotions and expansion] but had already departed sick to hospital 9 September and never returned. Geiger wrote 7 September that his junior subaltern ‘ … who had shown signs of a breakdown for a few days, crocked and was sent home’. He went to serve in the Egyptian Army during the war. Lloyd became a regular Captain 3 May 1917, and served again with the battalion in Ireland after the war. It is possible that he was the subject of Graves’s anecdote of the officer, named as Emu Jones, who was ‘not any good’ and who ‘had a weak heart and fainted daily on the Retreat’. Graves was, perhaps wisely, not averse to concealing his characters by using false names. The only Jones on the Retreat was ‘Buffalo’ Jones, who is a most unlikely candidate, recorded in TWTIK as probably unique among the subalterns in carrying his pack throughout the Retreat. Llewellyn died in 1970 aged 84. See also 4.30. He has no accessible PRO file. His number is P8560 ‘attached Egyptian Army’.

4.24 Second Lieutenant Richard Gordon Fabian Anderson. He was born 18 October 1892 and commissioned into RWF 5 August 1914 with back-dated seniority as a Second Lieutenant from 21 January 1913. He was made Lieutenant on 12 August 1914. His file gives no clue regarding this rapid preferment and the Adjutant’s ms shows clearly that CS Owen was expecting a Second Lieutenant and received a full Lieutenant. Anderson was allocated XI Platoon, C Company but made no impression, good or bad, on the contributors to TWTIK. He was wounded 26 October 1914 at La Cordonnerie by a fragment of shrapnel in the head. Sent to England to recover, he was back in France 30 September 1915 with 1RWF, became a Temporary Captain 11 October 1915, and a Captain 3 March 1916. Richard was back in England before September 1916 undergoing extensive hospitalisation for problems including ‘lack of stability and concentration, nervous instability, excitability and lack of sleep’, all apparently attributed to the 1914 wound. Patched up, he went on a Staff Course in Cambridge April/May 1917, served as Staff Captain in Eastern Command [uK] 1917/18 and then served for over a year as Staff Captain on the North Russian Expeditionary Force from 10 September 1918 to 6 October 1919. He became a Brevet Major, gazetted 3 February 1920, and went to 2RWF in Ireland, from whence he resigned a month later on 2 March 1920. As a Reserve officer he was recalled during the National Emergency 9 April 1921 to 3 May 1921. He subsequently applied to the Inner Temple for Law Examinations and their query to the War Office on his character and record elicited much of the above information, together with the statement that his conduct had been ‘satisfactory with nothing of an adverse nature’. Anderson has an accessible PRO folder WO 339 11095.

4.30 Lieutenant Edwin Tudor Jones. At least twenty Jones’s served as officers in this one battalion, so a good distinctive name ‘Tudor Jones’ must have been helpful to all. The name was nevertheless not unique to the Regiment as an RGT Tudor-Jones served as a Lieutenant on the Western Front. Edwin’s father was Lieutenant General Griffith Turner Jones and Tudor was old enough to serve in the ranks of the South African Constabulary during the Boer War, gaining the Queen’s South Africa campaign medal with five clasps. He was commissioned 5 April 1909 [special Reserve RWF] became Lieutenant on 7 November 1910 and was a recipient of King George’s Coronation Medal 1911. Edwin was a senior 3RWF Lieutenant at the outbreak of war and was given XVI Platoon [a flank platoon] in D Company. His nickname was ‘Buffalo’ Jones and he was uniquely reputed to have carried his pack throughout the Retreat [in those days subalterns marched with their men, carrying pack and rifle. See Figure 2.0.1 for a contemporary photograph of an infantryman with pack and rifle]. It is highly unlikely that Tudor Jones is the Emu Jones of Graves’s second hand account in GTAT, ‘not any good …. Weak heart, faint, skrimshanking etc …’. ‘Buffalo’ Jones was wounded 24 October 1914 at La Cordonnerie and did not return to the battalion but served subsequently with 1RWF as a Captain [seniority 15 December 1914]. He was killed on 3 September 1916 in the Battle of the Somme but his body was not recovered. His name and sacrifice are commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. See also 4.11. No PRO file has been traced.

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Re Llewellyn Sydney Lloyd. In Births, Deaths etc there is one of that name died 1970, Surrey South Western area (no Year Quarter shown), His birth given as 7/12/1985. 1901 Census for Flintshire shows that name , one year out in age, in Mold Rural, address of Hafod Hall.The family look prosperous albeit he is a 'nephew' there. Haven't got access to 1911 to see where he is then

Flintshire Archives have a card for all their men who served. It may be worth making contact with them to see if there is anything on this particular Llewelyn Sydney Lloyd that would link him to your query.

http://www.flintshire.gov.uk/wps/portal/english/!ut/p/c5/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3hDExNX50BXI0P30BAnAyNjYxM3I39TYwMDA6B8pFm8QYifv7GhmYmhhamhuYGnRaize1BooKGFnykB3eEg-_DrB8vjAI4G-n4e-bmp-gW5EQZZJo6KACxv9OI!/dl3/d3/L0lDU0lKSWdrbUEhIS9JRFJBQUlpQ2dBek15cXchLzRCRWo4bzBGbEdpdC1iWHBBRUEhLzdfMTQ0RUNRRTIxR1VUQjAyMzM0RjJPNTMwMDcvRFVKOmE4MDI5MDA1Mg!!/?WCM_PORTLET=PC_7_144ECQE21GUTB02334F2O53007_WCM&WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/web+content/flintshire/english/services/100009/200111/record+office+-+contact+details+and+opening+hours

That's one huge link. Hope it works.Otherwise google Flintshire Record Office Hawarden

Hywyn

PS. Might as well also ask about the other two just in case they're from that county.

edit: I see the link has shrunk down to a few words. It was five lines when I pasted it.

Just done that, we can but hope.

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Griffith Turner Jones gets a very curt entry in a post-WW1 Who's Who, with no domicile, club etc. named, but he does not come up when I search in Who Was Who, online. A false trail I regret to say.

D

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I'm hoping it may show an Army connection as well as the Flintshire one.

I've sent Hywyn a PM to confirm as follows:-

LLYOD, Llewelyn Sydney Relative Single M 24 1887 Lieut: 3 /r W Fus: Mold Flintshire

Looks promising. In 1911 this man is living with these two ladies: the 61 year old widowed Anna Maria Moray BROWN and her daughter Lilian Moray BROWN at Manor Farm Shepton Beauchamp Seavington. The only other person is a parlour maid. Might be something in the "Moray" running through the names?

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Small world, but James, the husband of Anna Maria Moray Brown (nee Pitt), was my, I think, great great uncle. Both the Brown (aka Moray Brown) and Pitt families came from the West Country. Their son, Captain Alan Moray Brown MC was in the 47th Sikhs and was killed at the Battle of Neuve Chapelle. Alan was educated at King Edward VI School Stratford on Avon and went to Sandhurst in 1899.

I am afraid I dont know of any Welsh connection. I am not sure if this takes you any further with Llewelyn Sidney Lloyd.

Moriaty

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Thanks to all so far!

By the way, please don't get hung up on any Welsh angle: the regular officers and the SR officers tended to be:

relatives of ex-RWF officers

sons of landed gentry, often Welsh Marches but far from exclusively

sons of professionals from anywhere: solicitors, doctors .....

lots of Welsh names but not a great deal of Welsh residence.

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Richard Gordon F Anderson

Birth Date: 1892

Death Registration Month/Year: 1975

Registration district: New Forest

Inferred County: Hampshire

Volume: 20

Page: 0816

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Is this marriage (1891) too early for your chap

Edwin Tudor Jones

Year of Registration: 1891

Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec

District: Paddington

County: Greater London, London, Middlesex

Volume: 1a

Page: 149 (click to see others on page)

edit: I do not think it is your chap because his widow's forename was Harriet and I cannot find a "matching" spouse within this marriage record (not that ancestry is by any means correct!)

Susan

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According to the CWGC, E T Jones was 47 when he died therefore born approximately 1869. His marriage to Harriet Eva Kirby was registered in Dolgellau in the Jan-March Qtr of 1915.

Aled

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Experience suggests that the best way to supplement the accounts with a portrait is to trace male line of descent ..... but poor old Jones seems to have been killed before he fathered a child.

My wife is the Ancestry buff; I will print all the above off and give her a golden half-sovereign if she can find me a relevant relative living and compos mentis.

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This is from The Times of Saturday, 22nd November, 1930:

LIEUTENANT-GENERAL G. T. JONES

Lieutenant-General Griffith Turner Jones, late Bengal Infantry, died at his residence at Douglas, Isle of Man, on Wednesday, in his ninety-second year. The eldest son of Dr, Robert Jones, of Bronhendre, Carnarvon, he was the last surviving officer of his rank of the old local service Presidency armies of India. He was born on February 5, 1839, when Queen Victoria had been little more than 18 months on the Throne, and was commissioned to the Bengal Infantry in August, 1859. His only was service was in Egypt in 1882, when he was awarded the medal and bronze star. He was transferred to the unemployed supernumerary list more than forty years ago.

Aled

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For what it's worth, I read in someone else's research that E.T.Jones was born at Towyn, Merionethshire. Same county he was married in - ?try County Record Office, Dolgellau.

His father is mentioned in Who's Who In Wales 1921 but only as a name, rank, & Bengal Army retired!

LST_164

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Thanks to all, sincerely. My wife will get stuck in at the weekend and I will report back.

To any RWF enthusiasts, I do have shots of

Delme-Radcliffe

O de L Williams

Sproule RAMC

CS Owen

QM Yates

G Geiger

J Wynne-Edwards

P Maltby

C Fitzroy

A Samson

D Powell

G Gore

W Pery-Knox-Gore

W Holmes

G Thomas

J Ormrod

E Thompson

R French

L Stable

R Phillips

H Davies

C Clegg-Hill

F Walwyn

J Childe-Freeman

P Mostyn

T Pritchard

E Stone and

E Jones-Vaughan

who, together with the three chaps currently sought were the "Originals" who sailed 11-13th Aug 1914

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Be a shame not to secure these last three.

Re LSTs post 19 here's the link to the relevant archives

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/archon/searches/locresult_details.asp?LR=220

A local newspaper lookup request around the date of death may prove fruitful. Still plenty of photos in them at that stage of the war, esp Officers.

Hywyn

PS I have left a comment on your Profile. The only way I could contact you!

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  • 3 years later...

It's a long while since this topic started, but I wonder if you have obtained any more info on L S Lloyd? If it's the same man, he was my great uncle and I knew him a little. I know there is a picture of him in army uniform in the family and I'm in the process of getting a copy. I found out recently that he was a Flt.Lieut. in the RAF Reserve in WW2. There is supposed to be an obituary for him in the RWF Journal Volume 18 Number 2 - Summer 1970, but I don't know how to access that - maybe through the RWF museum?

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This is all I have, thank you. Clearly he was ill during August and September 1914 ......... he was not the only one, Captain Geiger himself [see below] similarly collapsed. The stress of those early days of forced marches and skirmishes can scarcely be imagined.

As for Graves, I doubt if he ever met Lloyd so it is pure speculation on my part that Lloyd was the subject of Graves's acid tongue.

Should it be the same officer, I would love a photograph. I am still short of one for Tudor Jones, otherwise .................. !

Lieutenant Llewellyn Sydney Lloyd was born 7th December 1886 and was one of the officers posted on mobilisation from 3rd (Special Reserve) Battalion RWF to 2nd RWF. His commission was dated 28th May 1903 and his seniority as a Special Reserve lieutenant dated from 24th May 1905. The Army List shows that he was qualified for a captaincy. He became junior subaltern in A. Company, commanding IV Platoon and seems to have made little impact for good or ill in the short time he served, not being mentioned in The War the Infantry Knew. He became a captain 19th October 1914 (many vacancies in 3rd RWF had been caused by war losses, promotions and expansion) but had already departed sick to hospital on 9th September and never returned. Geiger wrote on 7th September that his junior subaltern ‘ … who had shown signs of a breakdown for a few days, crocked and was sent home’. He went to serve in the Egyptian Army. Lloyd became a regular captain 3rd May 1917, and served again with the unit in Ireland after the war. It is possible that he was the subject of Graves’s anecdote of the officer, named as Emu Jones, who was ‘not any good’ and who ‘had a weak heart and fainted daily on the Retreat’. Graves was, perhaps wisely, not averse to concealing his characters by using false names. The only Jones on the Retreat was ‘Buffalo’ Jones, who is a most unlikely candidate, recorded in The War the Infantry Knew as probably unique among the subalterns in carrying his pack throughout the Retreat. Llewellyn continued his service until December 1931, and he died on 29th June 1970 aged 84. His medal group, consists of 1914 Star and clasp, British War medal, Victory medal and the Defence medal of 1939-1945. This latter suggests possible Home Guard service.

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It's definitely him - thank you! Uncle Sydney was buried in Grayshott, Surrey on July 3rd, 1970. He married in 1919 and his father-in-law was Lt. Col. H.L. Powell whom Frogsmile helped me to identify here.

I'll get the picture and post it - might take a few weeks.

Thanks again!

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