German map - Pillegrems Farm - July 1917

[claymore]

An RFC relative of mine and his pilot were shot down and killed NE of Houthem in early July 1917. They were buried by the Germans at their HQ at Pillegrems Farm, immediately NE of Houthem. I was hoping that someone might have a German map of that period that might indicate a marked cemetery in the vicinity of the HQ? Thanks.

[Guest GUY MAHIEU]

There were two german cemetries in Houthem.They are desapear now. One in the actual rue de Wijtschate (at that time : Hohenzollernstrasse) and the other in the north of Houthem.

The first one is not so far from the Pillegrems farm. This cemetry is located between Richtershof and Sachsenhof just under the Kommandopost Ruppertsbau. (see german map included)

I have two air fotographs of this cemetry coming from a the Imperial War Museum. (mapping the front) showing the farm and the cemetry but I am not allowed to publish them. (one taken the day before the battle of Messines and the other one 6 days later.

Best regards

Guy

[claymore]

Guy - you reference a German map but there was no attachment. Thanks.

[claymore]

Guy: I see the cemetery that you reference between Richtershof and Sachsenhof in a previous post - are you aware of the Germans burying Allied casualties in that cemetery? Thanks.

[AOK4]

Hello,

2Lt Gleed was buried in a single grave Northeast of point 2158 in the centre of the attached map (see "concentration doc" on http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/448501/GLEED,%20JOHN%20VICTOR%20ARIEL.) This was very close to the frontline, the Germans were probably not able to get both men away from there (as this was too dangerous) and buried them on the spot. The grave marker for 2Lt Gleed was found after the war, but the one for Lt. Fotheringham was probably lost later.

Jan

[towisuk]

Hi Kimmer, this is taken from the CWGc site......

So using "Linesman" digital mapping package we use the given co-ordinates we can find the grave location, I presume your relative would have been buried initially at the same location if found. Of course he may have been found there but not been able to be identified..... which puts his name on the Arras Flying Services Memorial, and could be buried as an unknown in the same cemetery as Gleed...maybe close by him..??

regards

Tom

[towisuk]

This just shows how the CWGC changed Cleed / Clood to Gleed on it's records....

The CWGC should have a map reference for any "unknows" found there, it may pay to drop them a line to see if there was another body found at the same location

Tom

[claymore]

Tom and Jan:

Thank you for your prompt replies, interest and assistance on this - it's a fascinating story to me, but I'm likely biased due to the family relationship. I'm sure that there are thousands of similar stories.

If you are interested, have a look at the research we've done to date - pages 22 to 28 would appear to rule out the possibility that Fotheringham's body was recovered with Gleed's, but not identifiable, and buried near him in a "Known Unto God" grave. The document needs some updating to include your contributions.

http://www.mygrandfatherswar.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Lieutenant-J.B.-Fotheringham.pdf

As you indicate, it's likely that they were both buried where they crashed, and I'd like to think that Fotheringham is still in that farmer's field, waiting to be found. We do have aerial photos from later in 1917 that show that area was heavily shelled.

Thanks again for your help.

[AOK4]

Hello,

You have performed a very interesting research already!

You may notice in the Red Cross files that both men are listed as "verstorben 7.7.17". There is no reason why they wouldn't both be buried together as both men's possessions were returned together as well.

If he would have been buried in a German cemetery, records would have survived that he was and he would most probably have received a special memorial mentioning that the grave was lost on this cemetery (the Allies received copies of the German cemetery lists so that they could locate their dead). I also don't know of a German cemetery near Pillegrems Ferme.

I'll try to look into some German unit histories to see whether anything is mentioned there.

Jan

[AOK4]

I've found out that the plane crashed in the sector of Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment 8 or Bavarian Infantry Regiment 16. I am in the Bavarian military archives Munich in January, but I probably won't have the time to check some things then.

The regimental histories don't mention the crash of Gleed and Fotheringham as such. Only BIR 16 mentions that on 7 July 3 British planes crashed nearby.

Jan

[towisuk]

As Jan has already stated an excellent piece of research Kimmer. The curved ball is the "died as prisoner of war" record, but there are bound to be anomalies amongst the records when you consider the number of casualties in the war.

Interesting photo of the stained glass window in the Spalding church to Captain Charles Lewis Harvey brother in law to Gleed, I was in the Somme battlefields a couple of months ago researching his battalions activities on the first day of the battle..!

Again many thanks for posting the story of your relative and your attempts to locate his grave, I'm keeping a copy of it as an example of the way research should be presented.

regards

Tom

[towisuk]

Can't seem to come to terms with the anomaly in differences in the map references .....the ones the Germans gave for Gleed, 28 O 24.d.0.8. and the ones from where he was exhumed 28 O 23.b.9.5.

Below is an aerial photo with the German map reference to the south of Pillegrem farm....800 yards from where he was recovered by the CWGC.

Looking at the shell marked landscape it's a wonder more battlefield burials weren't lost!

regards

Tom

[LDT006]

Hello,

 

I found the graves of 2 unknown RFC airman who died 7 juli 1917 at Deulemont and during googling for more information found this topic.

 

2Lt JVA Gleed and Lt JB Fotheringham are listed on German documents (Nachlassliste), this means that they have been buried by the Germans and their belongings removed and forwarded to Germany.

Fotheringham:

Full document: http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/73522/1872/14204

Gleed:

Full document: http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/73522/1872/14204

 

I couldn't find Lt T Hewson or Lt FCH Snyder from the second plane [A1029 Sopwith 2str] on these lists.

 

The German claims are confusing and different depending on the source, there is a claim from Ltn.d.R. Anders for a Sopwith 1 1/2 at 18h20 at "other side" Hollebeke and one from Vzfw. Lautenschlager Jasta 11 for a Sopwith 1-1/2 at 18h10 at "other side" Wytschaete. This would mean that both the crashes were close or over the frontline and thus difficult to recover by either British or German to properly bury the dead.

 

There was more air fighting in this area on the same day, 7 RFC casualties have a known grave either buried by the Germans or British. 7 others are still missing but 2 of these are now at Messines Ridge recovered from Deulemont, SW of Warneton. I think it is A7493 DH4 with Lt PW Battersby and Capt WW Fitzherbert but am not sure yet.

 

Regards,

Luc.

 

 

 

Edited 15 June , 2016 by LDT006
links don't work, trying to fix, done

[Guest]

The Pilgrims farm was not a german HQ. There the main building were very recent, the german officers resided there. The HQ was situated about 250 m south east in two bunkers.

One of them still exists. It is situated in the farm of Mr André Claerbout, just at the frontier between Houthem and Wijtschate.