Uncommemorated casualties

[Rodge Dowson]

During the research for my first book title 'Manchester Scottish' I noticed a soldier listed in SDGW and mentioned in the Manchester Evening News casualty section whom I could not locate on the CWGC register. I am happy to say that now after nearly 3 years since passing details to the CWGC, the soldier in question has been investigated by the MOD and it has now been agreed to commemorate him on the Thiepval Memorial to the missing. He is one of a number of cases recently recommended for such action. His details;

L/Cpl. Frederick William MANN, 29523 2nd Bn. Royal Scots. KIA 30/7/16. Age 23, son of Mrs Fanny MANN of 9, Carnarvon St., Cheetham Hill, Manchester. His brother Henry also fell.

PHOTO - page 79, 'Manchester Scottish'.

He formerly was employed by 'Sparrow, Hardwick & Co', also served with the 17th (Rosebury) Bn. Royal Scots.

It is a happy day for me when things like this do eventually work out. I am going to contact the Manchester Press again to relate the story in case any family members survive.

Rodge Dowson

[Conor Dodd]

How was it that the CWGC overlooked him ???

Conor

[Terry Denham]

Conor

CWGC only commemorate those names supplied to them by the War Office or Admiralty. Several names were never supplied for many reasons.

In the same way, CWGC do not decide whether a 'missing' name should be added or not. It is passed to the MoD for a decision. A somewhat illogical process now as the MoD no longer hold WW1 personal records!

In the past couple of years there has been an attempt to move this decision process to CWGC but the discussions lead to the outcome that the procedure stays as it is.

Well done, Rodge. I remember the feeling that you get when you manage to get someone recognised. A glow develops because you have finally brought someone in from the cold!

[Martin B]

I have two examples of men 'overlooked' by the commission. The first, Pte. B A Sykes of the 10th Hussars was KIA on May 13th 1915 at Potijze near Ypres. SDGW notes him but for whatever reason the Commission had missed him until I was able to provide them with his details. Now his name appears on the adenda panel of the Menin Gate.

My second man is a more complicated case. He was serving with the 10th Hussars in Ireland when he absented himself without leave in 1921. Having served a period of detention at Hare Park Camp, Curragh, he took his own life. The Directorate of Army Manning have accepted him as a casualty as have the Army Non War Graves Office. The Commission would like to add him to their register but for one snag; I don't know where he is buried (despite the fact I have a photo. of his headstone). He is not buried at the Curragh and extensive enquiries in both the Republic and at home have come to nought. His fate has become something of an obsession for me but it looks as though I'm in for the long haul.

[Terry Denham]

We may be able to help you if you give us the name of the second man.

CWGC do have a means of commemorating a casualty who died in the UK (inc Ireland for WW1) but whose burial location is unknown or whose body could not be recovered.

Their names are added to The United Kingdom 1914-1918 Memorial, Brookwood, Surrey. Never heard of it, I hear you say. That is because it has not yet been built but the plans are already drawn up for its construction.

To date it has 177 names to be inscribed on it and these already appear in the CWGC database. I have a full list if anyone is interested.

[Guest]

During the research for my first book title 'Manchester Scottish' I noticed a soldier listed in SDGW and mentioned in the Manchester Evening News casualty section whom I could not locate on the CWGC register. I am happy to say that now after nearly 3 years since passing details to the CWGC, the soldier in question has been investigated by the MOD and it has now been agreed to commemorate him on the Thiepval Memorial to the missing. He is one of a number of cases recently recommended for such action. His details;

L/Cpl. Frederick William MANN, 29523 2nd Bn. Royal Scots. KIA 30/7/16. Age 23, son of Mrs Fanny MANN of 9, Carnarvon St., Cheetham Hill, Manchester. His brother Henry also fell.

PHOTO - page 79, 'Manchester Scottish'.

He formerly was employed by 'Sparrow, Hardwick & Co', also served with the 17th (Rosebury) Bn. Royal Scots.

It is a happy day for me when things like this do eventually work out. I am going to contact the Manchester Press again to relate the story in case any family members survive.

Rodge Dowson

Frederick is my great great uncle. Thank you so much for ensuring he is commemorated. His brother was known to the family as Kaspar, but is recorded as Henry K. I think it was either because he from a Germany family, or possibly, he enlisted underage.

Thank you again

Victoria Mann

[zephyr4]

I have just found this post and have an update.

Quote

L/Cpl. Frederick William MANN, 29523 2nd Bn. Royal Scots. KIA 30/7/16. Age 23, son of Mrs Fanny MANN of 9, Carnarvon St., Cheetham Hill, Manchester. His brother Henry also fell.

PHOTO - page 79, 'Manchester Scottish'.

He formerly was employed by 'Sparrow, Hardwick & Co', also served with the 17th (Rosebury) Bn. Royal Scots.

It is a happy day for me when things like this do eventually work out. I am going to contact the Manchester Press again to relate the story in case any family members survive.

Rodge Dowson

Frederick is my great great uncle. Thank you so much for ensuring he is commemorated. His brother was known to the family as Kaspar, but is recorded as Henry K. I think it was either because he from a Germany family, or possibly, he enlisted underage.

I think Frederick Williams Mann's brother was Henry Rasper Mann of the South African infantry listed on the CWGC, does anyone have any more information or can post the photo mentioned above.

Just found Henry K Mann on the CWGC site and it is Frederick's brother , I have two death plaques Fredericks and the other named Henry Rasper Mann both came from the same source who was a relative and told me they were brothers?.

Thanks Steve

[David_Underdown]

It strikes me that Rasper could easily have come from a misreading of Kasper/Kaspar during the recording process.

[zephyr4]

It look's like that, I have spoken to the person who gave me the plaques and her husband owned them for over 50 years It is just that I found a Henry Rasper Mann on the CWGC site.

[David_Underdown]

Sorry, are you saying that there's both a Henry Kaspar Mann and a Henry Rasper Mann in CWGC?

[grantowi]

Henry Kasper was registered as CASPER (Prestwich / 8D / 393 / 1 qt / 1899)

But is just shown as Kasper (no Henry) in the 1901 and 1911 census (his Father was a German subject)

and would have been just 16 when he died in 1915

Grant

[zephyr4]

I think I have messed up on my research I thought I had found him on the CWGC site and it was simply H R Mann and put two and two together.

The family did change there name at sometime from either Manheim or Hasselbeck or maybe the farther was Manheim and the mother Hasselbeck ?.

On the http://www.freebmd.org.uk site he is listed as Mann Henry Casper Prestwich 8d 393 March 1899

MANN, HENRY K.

Initials: H K

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Seaforth Highlanders

Unit Text: 4th Bn.

Date of Death: 13/05/1915

Service No: 2705

Additional information: Son of Fanny Mann of 9 Carnavon Street, Cheetham, Manchester.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

[Guest]

Hi Zephyr4

My great great Grandad is Carl Mann. He came over from Germany in the 1890s and was a tailor in Manchester. He married Emma Haselbeck and his children were, Frederick William, Henry Kaspar (known as Kaspar), Carl Victor my great Grandad), Albertina and Gladys.

Carl Victor was in the ambulance service in the first world war and survived, his son is William Mann

My Dad has some pictures of Kaspar; I'll ask him to scan them onto the computer.

If you are interested in more details from the family tree, let me know

Thanks

Vicky

[zephyr4]

Hi Vicky.

It would be great if you could post or email the picture I will pm you with my email address.

z4