George Penn

[MikePenn]

Hi

I am looking for information on my fathers uncle Private George Penn 30780

10th Battalion Queens Own ( Royal West Kent Regiment)

died in France & Flanders 26 October 1918

He came from Northampton

Any information regarding him or the regiment.

regards

Mike

[willy]

Hi

I am looking for information on my fathers uncle Private George Penn 30780

10th Battalion Queens Own ( Royal West Kent Regiment)

died in France & Flanders 26 October 1918

He came from Northampton

Any information regarding him or the regiment.

regards

Mike

Try this link http://www.1914-1918.net/rwk

[Longboat]

Hello Mike,

Soldiers Died in the Great War has the following info about Pte George Penn 30780

Born-Northampton

Enlisted-Northampton

Died of Wounds

He is buried at MOORSEELE MILITARY CEMETERY, BELGIUM

I have the regimental history and the 10th's War Diary, I'll see what I can come up with,

Stuart.

[bartensabien]

I live 5 miles away from the cemetery. If you want me to take a picture of the grave :let me know.

Bart

[Longboat]

Mike,

Firstly, George Penn's service number 30780. I'm no expert in this field, far from it but I have done a bit of research concerning the service numbers of the men of the 11th Royal West Kent's. This number was probably allocated sometime in 1918 possibly when the 10th Battalion was re-constituted after being nearly wiped out in the German Spring Offensive. The war diary states that 700 other ranks were received in a mass draft on the 5th April 1918.

As George Penn died of wounds it's difficult to determine where this happened. The regimental history states, "Of all the battalions of The Queen's Own in the Western theatre of war the 10th had the longest spell of fighting in October."

According to the war diary the 10th proceeded to Moorseele on the 16th October where it rested for 5 hours before moving into Brigade Reserve at Heule via Gullehem. Here the 10th rested, the war diary noting that it was subject to "Hostile shelling, very frequent. Enemy aircraft active during night, many bombs being dropped." There is no mention of the number of casualties, if any.

On the 20th October the 10th proceeded to Courtrai where it billeted for the night before moving on. On the evening of the 22nd October the 10th moved into the front line, facing S.E between the villages of Kattestraat and Kwadestraat.

The regimental history goes on to say,

" Before the general advance could be resumed it was highly desirable to clear the enemy out of their strong positions opposite the 10th in order to striaghten the line at this point. On Occtober 23rd therefore the 10th was ordered to make the attempt , though very little artillery support was available...The attack came under heavy fire from machine-guns at once, but progress was made nevertheless. However, after some 400 yards had been gained by A and D (companies) the fierceness of the machine-gun fire from the chapel E. of Kattestraat pulled them up, and though B (coy) reached Hill 66 there was a farm over the crest from the roof of which several machine-guns fired with most deadly effect. From Hoogmolen Mill, too, other machine-guns swept the front, and as the troops on the flanks had not managed to get as far forward the battalion had to fall back at nightfall appproximately to it's starting-off line.

At 2.30 next morning (24th) the advance was renewed...but with no more backing from the artillery. Much the same thing happened; ground was gained at first, several German posts were cleared out by D (coy) but machine-gun fire from the left flank held the advance up and D, after holding on to it's gains for some time had to go back for lack of suppport on it's exposed left flank.

C (coy) also, after capturing the farm on the eastern slopes of Hill 66, found it untenable in the face of increasing shelling and a converging machine gun fire

That night the 11th Queen's releived the battalion which was placed in brigade reserve."

The war diary has the following under casualties:

4 Officers Killed, 1 wounded. Other Ranks Killed 27, Wounded 64, Missing 3.

Regards, Stuart.

[ander11]

Hi Mike

George Penn details from CWGC

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=163571

best regards

Ian

[bartensabien]

Good evening

Courtrai is the french name for Kortrijk.

In the WD they mention Kwaadestraat en Kattestraat. These are 2 tiny hamlets (only a few houses) SE of Zwevegem,

I found a little map (copy of copy of copy....) showing the 2 hamlets.

I pasted the map on googleEarth an d attached to this mail.

Regards

Bart.D.D

[Longboat]

Bart.D.D

Thanks for the clarification, I was having trouble trying to find my way round on Google maps

Cheers Stuart.

[bartensabien]

I don't know much about the actions between 18-30 october 1918.

The historians call it 'the final advance', 'the last 10 weeks'....;

from CWGC.org:

The village of Moorseele was captured by the 15th Royal Irish Rifles on 14 October 1918, after remaining in German hands during almost the whole of the war. The school attached to the Convent of the Holy Family was used by German medical units from October 1914 to October 1918, and they began the cemetery behind the convent in 1915. It was also used in October 1918 by the XIX Corps Burial Officer and the 3rd Australian and 64th Casualty Clearing Stations. After the Armistice, five graves were moved into the cemetery from MOORSEELE CHURCHYARD (which was used by the Germans until October 1917) and in 1929, one from CUERNE CHURCHYARD. In 1930, more than 800 German graves were removed to Mesen. The cemetery contains 98 Commonwealth burials of the First World War.

After they liberated Moorseele and Gullegem (14/15 Oct) they reached the river Lyss in Courtrai (Kortrijk). From the river Lyss they moved towards the river Scheldt (Schelde). There, also, a lot of Germa resistance. Most divisions stayed on the left bank of the river until 11 Nov. Kwadestraat and Kattestraat are between the 2 rivers.

Pte Simcoe (from the same 10th batalion) died on the 25th and is als burried in Moorsele.

I will look into it later, maybe I will find more details about all actions in that area.

[bartensabien]

Good morning,

I had a look in my documents this morning.

I did not find any extra information.

In the past I did som research on the actions on 14 -19 October (the liberation of Moorseele en my hometown Gulleghem).

The 41th Division did not see action in my village. They were figthing a few miles more to the South.

The 9th and 41th division mention Ooteghem (today spelled Otegem) in their list of actions and battles.

Otegem is near Kwadestraat en Kattestraat.

If you google on Ooteghem and "25 october 1918" I'm sure you will find more details about the actions in that area.

regards

Bart

[MikePenn]

Hi Stuart

Thank you for this information I am sorry it's took me a long time to respond I have been researching the rest of my family tree so just getting back to our war heroes.

regards

Mike

Mike,

Firstly, George Penn's service number 30780. I'm no expert in this field, far from it but I have done a bit of research concerning the service numbers of the men of the 11th Royal West Kent's. This number was probably allocated sometime in 1918 possibly when the 10th Battalion was re-constituted after being nearly wiped out in the German Spring Offensive. The war diary states that 700 other ranks were received in a mass draft on the 5th April 1918.

As George Penn died of wounds it's difficult to determine where this happened. The regimental history states, "Of all the battalions of The Queen's Own in the Western theatre of war the 10th had the longest spell of fighting in October."

According to the war diary the 10th proceeded to Moorseele on the 16th October where it rested for 5 hours before moving into Brigade Reserve at Heule via Gullehem. Here the 10th rested, the war diary noting that it was subject to "Hostile shelling, very frequent. Enemy aircraft active during night, many bombs being dropped." There is no mention of the number of casualties, if any.

On the 20th October the 10th proceeded to Courtrai where it billeted for the night before moving on. On the evening of the 22nd October the 10th moved into the front line, facing S.E between the villages of Kattestraat and Kwadestraat.

The regimental history goes on to say,

" Before the general advance could be resumed it was highly desirable to clear the enemy out of their strong positions opposite the 10th in order to striaghten the line at this point. On Occtober 23rd therefore the 10th was ordered to make the attempt , though very little artillery support was available...The attack came under heavy fire from machine-guns at once, but progress was made nevertheless. However, after some 400 yards had been gained by A and D (companies) the fierceness of the machine-gun fire from the chapel E. of Kattestraat pulled them up, and though B (coy) reached Hill 66 there was a farm over the crest from the roof of which several machine-guns fired with most deadly effect. From Hoogmolen Mill, too, other machine-guns swept the front, and as the troops on the flanks had not managed to get as far forward the battalion had to fall back at nightfall appproximately to it's starting-off line.

At 2.30 next morning (24th) the advance was renewed...but with no more backing from the artillery. Much the same thing happened; ground was gained at first, several German posts were cleared out by D (coy) but machine-gun fire from the left flank held the advance up and D, after holding on to it's gains for some time had to go back for lack of suppport on it's exposed left flank.

C (coy) also, after capturing the farm on the eastern slopes of Hill 66, found it untenable in the face of increasing shelling and a converging machine gun fire

That night the 11th Queen's releived the battalion which was placed in brigade reserve."

The war diary has the following under casualties:

4 Officers Killed, 1 wounded. Other Ranks Killed 27, Wounded 64, Missing 3.

Regards, Stuart.

[MikePenn]

Hi Stuart

I would also like any other information regarding his parents and address as I note on his details from the war graves that information is missing unlike some of my other research, as my granfather Arthur James Penn (Northampton Regiment) fought in WW1 and was wounded then discharged.

Or can I access any other records that would give me this information?

regards

Mike

Hi Stuart

Thank you for this information I am sorry it's took me a long time to respond I have been researching the rest of my family tree so just getting back to our war heroes.

regards

Mike

Mike,

Firstly, George Penn's service number 30780. I'm no expert in this field, far from it but I have done a bit of research concerning the service numbers of the men of the 11th Royal West Kent's. This number was probably allocated sometime in 1918 possibly when the 10th Battalion was re-constituted after being nearly wiped out in the German Spring Offensive. The war diary states that 700 other ranks were received in a mass draft on the 5th April 1918.

As George Penn died of wounds it's difficult to determine where this happened. The regimental history states, "Of all the battalions of The Queen's Own in the Western theatre of war the 10th had the longest spell of fighting in October."

According to the war diary the 10th proceeded to Moorseele on the 16th October where it rested for 5 hours before moving into Brigade Reserve at Heule via Gullehem. Here the 10th rested, the war diary noting that it was subject to "Hostile shelling, very frequent. Enemy aircraft active during night, many bombs being dropped." There is no mention of the number of casualties, if any.

On the 20th October the 10th proceeded to Courtrai where it billeted for the night before moving on. On the evening of the 22nd October the 10th moved into the front line, facing S.E between the villages of Kattestraat and Kwadestraat.

The regimental history goes on to say,

" Before the general advance could be resumed it was highly desirable to clear the enemy out of their strong positions opposite the 10th in order to striaghten the line at this point. On Occtober 23rd therefore the 10th was ordered to make the attempt , though very little artillery support was available...The attack came under heavy fire from machine-guns at once, but progress was made nevertheless. However, after some 400 yards had been gained by A and D (companies) the fierceness of the machine-gun fire from the chapel E. of Kattestraat pulled them up, and though B (coy) reached Hill 66 there was a farm over the crest from the roof of which several machine-guns fired with most deadly effect. From Hoogmolen Mill, too, other machine-guns swept the front, and as the troops on the flanks had not managed to get as far forward the battalion had to fall back at nightfall appproximately to it's starting-off line.

At 2.30 next morning (24th) the advance was renewed...but with no more backing from the artillery. Much the same thing happened; ground was gained at first, several German posts were cleared out by D (coy) but machine-gun fire from the left flank held the advance up and D, after holding on to it's gains for some time had to go back for lack of suppport on it's exposed left flank.

C (coy) also, after capturing the farm on the eastern slopes of Hill 66, found it untenable in the face of increasing shelling and a converging machine gun fire

That night the 11th Queen's releived the battalion which was placed in brigade reserve."

The war diary has the following under casualties:

4 Officers Killed, 1 wounded. Other Ranks Killed 27, Wounded 64, Missing 3.

Regards, Stuart.

[MikePenn]

I leave 5 miles away from the cemetery. If you want met to take a picter of the grave :let me know.

Bart

Hi Bart

Yes please if you are passing that way I am just getting back into the swing of things with my family history so this would be nice to have.

regards

Mike

[Stebie9173]

Mike,

The family appear to have been living at 40 Gladstone Terrace, Northampton during the war.

The address is mentioned in a short article of Arthur's wounding in the Northampton Mercury:

It reads:

Northampton Mercury 21-5-1915 - WOUNDED. PENN, Pte. A., 2nd Northants Regt. Private Penn, the son of Mrs Penn, 40 Gladstone Terrace, Northampton, has received a wound in the left arm six inches long and four inches wide. He is presently in Graylingwell War Hospital, Chicester, and is progressing favourably. He will be 21 years of age in July. Private Penn has seen service in Egypt, and had 48 hours leave before going to the Front.

His name appears in the casualty lists in the Times of 10-6-1915 showing him as a Private with 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment, with his Regimental number as 9375. These are all men who were wounded at the battle of Aubers Ridge (the 2nd Northamptons were in action at Rouge Bancs near Fromelles during the battle). The battalion lost 160 men killed and many more wounded.

The address is shown as the same on the Northampton Roll of Honour of men serving in 1916:

http://www.familyhistorynorthants.co.uk/soldier%20index%20roll%20of%20honour.htm

George Penn possibly hasn't enlisted by then, so may or may not be one of the Georges shown on the database.

Arthur Penn (the Army lists him as James A Penn on his Medal Card and James Arthur Penn on his medal roll) enlisted on 8th September 1911. He would have trained for a couple of months at the Depot at Northampton before joining 1st Battalion at Devonport and later Blackdown Camp at Aldershot. After a couple of years he would have gone ocerseas to join 2nd Battalion who were on Malta from February 1911 to January 1914 before they moved to Egypt. The mention of only Egypt in the article suggests he joined the 2nd Battalion in Egypt some time after January 1914. He would have returned to England with 2nd Battalion in September 1914 before he went to France with the 2nd Battalion on the evening of 4th November 1914 and disembarked in France on 6th November 1914. He would also have gone through the major battle at Neuve Chapelle between 10th and 14th March 1915 before the battle at Aubers Ridge.

Arthur was discharged from the army due to Wounds on 14th February 1916, which is entirely conistent with the wounds received at Aubers Ridge being the wounds that caused his discharge from the Army.

Steve.

P.S. Using Fast Reply at the bottom of the page will prevent the previous posts being repeated in your replies.

[MikePenn]

Steve

many thanks for that information every little helps in putting together the facts relating to the family heroes.

regards

Mike