John R LEE

[KZNChris]

I am busy reading through "Phanton Flotilla" author Peter Shankland

It would appear that John R Lee is really the unsung hero of the Lake Tanganyika naval expedition.

I cannot understand the way the British Officer class worked ?

Lee had quite a number of good ideas and the knowledge and local expertise to back them up.

Even after being shafted in the back by Sub Lieutenant Hope ( and Spicer ) he still sat down in Cape Town and sent off more ideas to the Admiralty

Quite good ideas I think

Shankland Page 99

But the British officer class being what they were ignored his letter and prepared to arrest him if he returned to England.

If this type of officer class is still active in the current UK forces then G D help us.

Edited 10 January , 2011 by Alan Curragh
Offensive language removed

[horatio2]

I am pleased you got that off your chest - nothing like a good rant when you "cannot understand". It does not add much to any debate but I expect you feel better for having said it.

[KZNChris]

I am pleased you got that off your chest - nothing like a good rant when you "cannot understand". It does not add much to any debate but I expect you feel better for having said it.

Good ; I was quite serious.

There is actually not much to understand , just read about TANGA -- Smuts got rid of most of these British ( Australian and Irish ) Generals

Meinertzhagen for all his faults summed them up quite well !

What is interesting is that Lee and Magee -- Lee mainly -- had prepared a set of maps and detailed instructions for the section of the Overland part of the Journey.

Spicer-Simpson had these handed over to him first before proceeding to do the dirty on Lee

WHAT has happened to this documentation of Lee ? -- these maps / route descriptions / instructions for village chiefs / etc etc ?????

Perhaps you can get that -- on your chest -- and come up with an answer ?

[KONDOA]

Knowing the British propensity for filing stuff it may have ended up hidden in here:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=lake+tanganyika&txtfirstdate=1914&txtlastdate=1922&txtrestriction=&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=23&image1.y=12

Roop

[howardchinner]

Have you checked with Peter Baxter at www.peterbaxterafrica.com See his input on Mimi & Toutou. Also on "Liemba" currently being restored for Centenary events.

Good ; I was quite serious.

There is actually not much to understand , just read about TANGA -- Smuts got rid of most of these British ( Australian and Irish ) Generals

Meinertzhagen for all his faults summed them up quite well !

What is interesting is that Lee and Magee -- Lee mainly -- had prepared a set of maps and detailed instructions for the section of the Overland part of the Journey.

Spicer-Simpson had these handed over to him first before proceeding to do the dirty on Lee

WHAT has happened to this documentation of Lee ? -- these maps / route descriptions / instructions for village chiefs / etc etc ?????

Perhaps you can get that -- on your chest -- and come up with an answer ?

[KZNChris]

Knowing the British propensity for filing stuff it may have ended up hidden in here:

http://www.nationala...=23&image1.y=12

Roop

Thanks Roop

( I thought that it was the Germans that filed everything )

One needs special training in order to navigate these foreign waters.

I do have a suspicion though that perhaps Lee's maps etc might be in Spicer-Simpsons private papers ?????

The UK archives are fantastic -- but they do not contain everything -- how can they -- it was the empire upon which the sun never set ( and still does'nt )

[KZNChris]

I am pleased you got that off your chest - nothing like a good rant when you "cannot understand". It does not add much to any debate but I expect you feel better for having said it.

I am afraid that there is something else I cannot understand.

Having just got a hold of Edward Paice's "Tip & Run" I have discovered what he has to say of Spicer-Simpson

"The Ubiquitous Rhodesians" Chapter Twenty One Page 234 -- foornote

In the footnote Paice savages Peter Shankland's "Phantom Flotilla" and portrays Lee as a neer-do-well

The souce he mentions ( Mackenzie (1) p.410 ) I can find nowhere ?

Strange that Magee ( author of article in the NGM ) who was apparently with Lee at all times -- yet is not censured at all and continues with the expedition ?

Is it with Spicer-Simpson , as with Meinertzhagen, Rhodes and Disraeli the link with the dynasty of Rothschild ? ( His father was a stockbroker -- page 100 )

Now Sir -- would you like to join the debate ?

[horatio2]

"Would you like to join the debate?" A kind offer but no thank you, as I am insufficiently informed of the subject and posess only one useful reference, Paice's book.

For those who do not have Paice, the footnote in question reads:-

"In 1921 Spicer-Simpson was elected the first Secretary General of the new International Hydrographic Bureau, a position he held until his retirement in 1937; among those who unequivocally elected him to the post was none other than his Belgian opposite number during the Tanganyika campaign, Commandant Goor. Geoffrey Spicer Simpson died in British Columbia in 1947 leaving a widow, Amy, but unfortunately no offspring to defend him against the publication in 1968 of Peter Shankland's The Phantom Flotilla. A 'lurid and often inaccurate' account (Mackenzie (1), p.410), this was largely based on the tale as woven by the expedition's doctor. Not only did he not like Spicer-Simpson, but he was manifestly an outsider on an expedition governed by naval rules and regulations. The result was a rather grotesque caricature of Spicer-Simpson which was perpetuated by other subsequent acounts that drew uncritically on Shankland as a source."

Was Lee (whom you annoint "the unsung hero") the expedition's doctor who so influenced Shankland's "lurid and often inaccurate account? It is not clear from the earlier posts who he is is and I can make no judgement either way.

If it will assist, the reference "Mackenzie (1), p.410" is listed in Paice's bibliography: "Mackenzie, John (1), 'The Tanganyika Naval Expedition', Mariner's Mirror Vol.71 (1985), pp.169-82."

I look forward to learning more from this discussion, not least what the "NGM" is.

[KZNChris]

Many thanks

I need lessons on bibliographic reference reading ( smacks his forad <sic> )

Paice really manages to scratch out obscure material -- not too say that it is not relevant

But he does seem to like Spicer-Simpson and not Lee.

Lee was the original guy who came up with the whole idea for the Naval Expedition to Lake Tanganyika

The expedition doctor -- whose eye witness account Shankland bases his book on was Dr H M Hanschell -- who apparently knew Spicer-Simpson very well

NGM National Geographic Magazine -- in which Magee's arrticle appeared.

[horatio2]

Thanks for the extra info. I am re-reading Paice to get some understanding of the detail of the expedition.