Staying in your original Battalion during 1914-18

[AndyLeatherland]

Hello,

I have reached a dead end researching my grandfather. His records were burnt and arent in the damaged series, and I have visited the Spalding Council Offices to try and find absent voter lists for 1918 having enquired at Lincoln Archives, but they dont appear to exist anymore for Crowland.

I know from his medals and the index card that he was in Kitchener's army Eastern Division and I even have a photo taken outside the recruiting office in Peterborough. I am certain that he joined the 5th Northamptonshire Battalion, and via the Regimental Museum got a copy of the Battalion history by Geoffrey Moore. The Museum were kind enough to look out a mention of him by name, but none was found. he was a corporal who appears to have had "lance corporal/corporal" ammende on his medal index card, indicating promotion/demotion.

For the records he was Thomas Ward 16041. He went on to have spells in hospital with "melancholia" in 1925 and 1940, which may or may not have been linked to his war service experiences.

I don't realistically expect to find further information on this man. I was wondering if an expert out there could hazard a guess at the likelihood that he served his entire war in the 5th Northants Battalion. This was a pioneer/service battalion. There are no updates to the medal index card, but I have been advised that the card may be out of date and it is possible that he was posted all over the place.

I get an understanding that manpower flowed back and forth between units.

Whats the likelihood that he was static, allowing me to guess at his war service through the regimental diaries/

Many thanks

[truthergw]

Hi Andy. As you are aware, men could be moved to and from any unit. Most men however, stayed in their original unit as long as that existed. I doubt if your GF would have been transferred if it was not on the medal index card. Pioneers may have been moved about as required, usually prior to a battle but that would not entail transferring the men. The unit would go where sent and do what was required. Most Pioneer battalions that I know of were swallowed up into Labour Corps in 1917. Service battalions were Kitchener men so your GF was in a pioneer battalion of a New Army division. The history of the division will tell you what happened to their pioneers. Ivor Lee on this forum is the man to consult.

[PPCLI]

Hi Andy,

I suggest putting '5th Northants' or similar into the title subheading field - that way it is more likely to attract a Northants enthusiast who may have access to the medal rolls (I'm sure there is someone on the forum who may be able to help in this regard if he sees your query). Your grandfather's medal roll entry will confirm or otherwise whether he served his entire war in the 5th Bn.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Andy

The info on the medal index card indicates that he did not serve abroad with any regiment or corps other than the Northants. If you look at the medal roll itself - and you may have to go to Kew to do this: they are in class WO329 - that may tell you if he transferred to any other battalion of the Northants while abroad. This may well have happened in 1918 when there was a manpower shortage and pioneer battalions were reduced from four companies to three.

With respect to Tom, I think that he is wrong in saying that some pioneer battalions were transferred to the Labour Corps. There were some infantry battalions, raised as labour (NOT pioneer) battalions, which did go to the Labour Corps, and of course some individual men may have been transferred from pioneer battalions to the Labour Corps but not, so far as I know, pioneer battalions as whole units.

If he was wounded or taken ill he might have been transferred to another unit at home, and the absence of his service record means that this cannot be checked directly.

Ron

[jim_davies]

You may also want to check the local newspaper archives for any mention of your grandfather. Seem to remember that the Spalding newspaper archive for the Great War period is available.

[truthergw]

Hello Andy

..........................

With respect to Tom, I think that he is wrong in saying that some pioneer battalions were transferred to the Labour Corps. There were some infantry battalions, raised as labour (NOT pioneer) battalions, which did go to the Labour Corps, and of course some individual men may have been transferred from pioneer battalions to the Labour Corps but not, so far as I know, pioneer battalions as whole units.

............................

Ron

You may well be right, Ron. I wish I could persuade myself to check before posting.

[River97]

I tend to agree with Ron,

Having a look at his MIC, he was entitled to the 1914-15 Star trio. According to the MIC, all three medals would have the same regiment stamped on them, and the same rank for that matter.

Just going off the MIC I would say he spent the entire war with the same regiment. There were many who did it. Quite a few moved to other regiments, but many stayed where they joined.

Cheers Andy.

[Stebie9173]

Northamptons enthusiast (from Peterborough) signing in....

You are right to be cautious about the medal rolls perhaps not telling the whole story. Only the later Northamptons medal rolls pages (from about page 2500 onwards) actually bother to list all a man's battalions.

Although the number of companies in Pioneer battalions were reduced in 1918, the number of presonnel was kept at a high level. Geoffrey Moore's book covers and provides a table of overall monthly personnel numbers to corroborate this as Andy has no doubt seen.

The 5th Northamptons were reluctant to part with their men especially as the war went on, as this meant losing trained Pioneers* that would have to be replaced by infantry. The expertise required to do the Pioneer battalion's jobs was a different "skillset" to the infantryman.

* There were also Pioneers in the Royal Engineers where the description meant a man without a specific trade qualification (the qualified man would be a Sapper). The pioneer battalion members would be a mixture of men with trained qualifications and untrained men (but not RE Pioneers or Sappers), but the number of specialists would probably be lower than in a Royal Engineers Field Company. The Pioneer battalions wore a cross rifle and pick badge on their collar which identified them as non out and out infantrymen, though they were still trained as infantrymen.

What set the Pioneer battalions apart from the Field Companies of the Royal Engineers was their role as assault pioneers - following the infantry battalions into battle to make communication trenches across No Man's Land and convert captured trenches to face the other way whilst the battle for the trenches was still ongoing. Whilst the pioneers faced less mass encounters with the enemey (exceptions in a big way for the 5th Northamptons were at Cambrai in 1917 and Amiens in 1918) they were always in an around the front line and suffered from a steady attrition of men.

Articles on Crowland men also appeared in the Peterborough newspapers. I am trying to think whether Crowland was covered in the Absent Voters List for Peterborough. I suspect not, but I will double check later.

I also may have a note on him if he appeared in any casualty lists but I will have to check that later.

There is a reprinted history of the 12th (Eastern) Division which will give a broader view of the 5th battalions war. As Pioneers they are not often mentioned by name, but the history is enlightening all the same.

His enlistment date would be approximately the middle of September 1914.

I personally think that he is very likely to have stayed in the 5th Battalion, but there was probably enough of a minority to not be able to assume so.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Right - there are two lots of good news and two lots of bad news...

Firstly, the good news.

Thomas Ward appears on two lists of men from Crowland serving in the Army & Navy (but with no numbers or units listed), These appeared in the Peterbrough Advertiser on 7th November 1914 and the 5th December 1914.

He also appears on a Times casualty list from the 29th January 1916 - I believe that would mean he was wounded with the 5th Battalion on the 9th January 1916.

Unfortunately, the above is part of the bad news - it probably increases the chances that he would have been transferred to another battalion upon his recovery.

The other piece of bad news is that I don't have Crowland on the AVL for Peterborough - the nearest being Eye and Newborough.

Steve.

[AndyLeatherland]

Right - there are two lots of good news and two lots of bad news...

Firstly, the good news.

Thomas Ward appears on two lists of me from Crowland serving in the Army & Navy (but with no numbers or units listed), These appeared in the Peterbrough Advertiser on 7th November 1914 and the 5th December 1914.

He also appears on a Times casualty list from the 29th January 1916 - I believe that would mean he was wounded with the 5th Battalion on the 9th January 1916.

Unfortunately, the above is part of the bad news - it probably increases the chances that he would have been transferred to another battalion upon his recover.

The other piece of bad news is that I don't have Crowland on the AVL for Peterborough - the nearest being Eye and Newborough.

I would like to thank Steve, River 97, Truthegw, Jim Davies, Ron Clifton and PPCLI. I am new to this forum and am overwhelmed by how helpful people are. I did not expect any further research on my Grandfather, but obviously I am really pleased that Steve has dug this detail out for me.

Several years ago I paid for a researcher to go to Kew. I have been myself before but you dont get much time there net of travelling when coming from the Midlands. I guess the medal cards are now on line. I'm not really sure but it sounds like a medal roll is different. It would be really good to look at the absent voter list for Crowland. This is not helped by the move of Crowland from Northampton to Lincolnshire. The Lincoln archives said it should be in Spalding Council. When I visited they produced the normal Rolls from 1918 onwards but not an absent voter list. I guess it has been either destroyed or misfiled when the county responsibilities for that area changed. Did an absent voter list have a very distinctive appearance? If it was called something more formal on the front cover I might get in touch again just to double check.

The consensus seems to be that, (on a balance of probability), he would have stayed with the Battalion had he not been wounded. Thanks to Steve he has shown him to be injured. This cant have been too severe as he discharged Z class in 1919 so the would have called him back if needed!

I believe his medals are all stamped up with the Battalion. Seems odd that you could serve in any number of regiments but end up with medals stamped with the first you joined.

In 2004 I wrote to the Regimental Museum and the then curator, Jon-Paul Carr made a search of the archives for any refrence and found none. I also wrote to Peterborough Library and between us tracked down the exact recruiting office in peterborough he attended, It was established in 15th August 1914 and a feature from 12th Sept shows a picture taken of recruits outside the office. Clearly enterprising photographers sold postcards of the daily intake to the lads so they could share them around with family at home.

You comment that my GFs induction would be about Sept 1914 and I do have a digital image of that which I attach if anyone would find that useful. Anybody in a position to visit Peterborough and Market square would find the doorway with recruiting office where the present day Dolland and Aitchison meets Abbey national

Do you think any hospital records survive?

PS I cant find it anywhere written down but I could swear that Jon Carr said there was a final photo taken of the Battalion before it was disbanded. Unhelpfully all the solidiers had their caps on. I could attempt to visit the museum to locate this but it is quite an adventure for an off chance!

[Stebie9173]

I've had a look through a few 5th Battalion men's records and they do tend to suggest that the men, once wounded or sick, did tend to end up back with the 5th Battalion (probably related to their more specialised role) - there was even one Peterborough man wounded 4 times and returned to the 5th Battalion each time, even managing to fit earning a Military Medal in!

If I had to give a specific date of enlistment (attestation in army speak) I would say the 20th September 1914, but there are always variations, and you can't be sure.

I may well be able to track down an article on his wounding in the local paper, but I am on secondment at the moment and rather cut off from access to the Library (withdrawal symptoms kicking in). Since there is no index to the newspapers it always helps to have a date to aim for!

There was a picture of the Cadre of about a dozen men that returned to Northampton in July 1919. It appeared in the Northampton Independent. The photograph there was named, but Corporal Ward is not on the photo. Since Thomas was transferred to Class Z Reserve in January 1919, he would have been demobilised a month earlier in December 1918 with a months leave (he might just have made it home for Christmas), he would have been a civilian for a long while before then.

Steve.

[AndyLeatherland]

I've had a look through a few 5th Battalion men's records and they do tend to suggest that the men, once wounded or sick, did tend to end up back with the 5th Battalion (probably related to their more specialised role) - there was even one Peterborough man wounded 4 times and returned to the 5th Battalion each time, even managing to fit earning a Military Medal in!

If I had to give a specific date of enlistment (attestation in army speak) I would say the 20th September 1914, but there are always variations, and you can't be sure.

I may well be able to track down an article on his wounding in the local paper, but I am on secondment at the moment and rather cut off from access to the Library (withdrawal symptoms kicking in). Since there is no index to the newspapers it always helps to have a date to aim for!

There was a picture of the Cadre of about a dozen men that returned to Northampton in July 1919. It appeared in the Northampton Independent. The photograph there was named, but Corporal Ward is not on the photo. Since Thomas was transferred to Class Z Reserve in January 1919, he would have been demobilised a month earlier in December 1918 with a months leave (he might just have made it home for Christmas), he would have been a civilian for a long while before then.

Steve.

Steve,

I am really grateful to you for putting the time in on this. it is nice that (on probability) I can picture him serving all his time in the 5th Battalion. I wouldnt expect you to slog through copies of the local papers for me! I will try and get over there at some point now I can aim at something. I suppose with your experience you know that wounded men tended to get a write up. I just assumed that there was such carnage that papers would never try and keep up with all the wounded.

I should like to be able to return the favour, but I'm afraid you have all the knowledge. You are welcome to better version of the photo of the recruitment office.

Other than that, another big thanks for an unexpected move forward in my knowledge of the guy. He had a Rubbish Childhood, went in to mental hospitals in later life and in the middle served 4 years in the trenches. Poor sod, but at least he did marry (late) and had three loving daughters with him when he died in 1958.

cheers

[Stebie9173]

Thanks for the extra information, Andy.

We often forget that, as bad as it was, the war was sometimes not the worst thing in these mens lives, but it is nice to see he found happiness later in life.

I've had a bit of a look at the relationship between the Casualty lists in the Times and the Wounded & Killed records in the War Diary and Kitchener's Pioneers (which list number of men only), and I am 99% sure that he would have been one of the two men reported as wounded on the 9th January 1916 while the battalion were working in the Givenchy-Festubert sector.

The other man is not so straightforward to identify but I think he may have been 12245 Thomas Alexander Andrews, of Southwark, who was belatedly reported as wounded in the casualty lists on 7-2-1916.

I would like a copy of the picture. If you send me a Personal Message (click the envelope in my mini profile on the left to send a PM) and include your e-mail address I will send you his medal roll pages, and some war diary pages if you want those, plus the full page of the Times casualty list.

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Another point that I have been musing over is his transfer to Class Z Reserve which is one of the earliest dates you will see. Weighing the evidence, I suspect that he was actually in the UK at the Armistice - the 5th battalion was kept at almost full strength until February 1919, and I can see no evidence that they released men early to go home in December 1918 (allowing the abovementioned month of leave before discharge).

He may well have been wounded or ill some time during 1918 and been invalided home before the end of the war. That is just speculation, however.

Steve.