RaySearching Posted 2 January , 2011 Share Posted 2 January , 2011 Hi I am currently researching all the Soldiers who lost there lives in the great war from North Ormesby/Cargo Fleet Could someone assist me with the following Soldier In what Location /Battle or Actions were the the 1st/10tth Manchesters engaged in, Around 24 September 1917 when the following soldier lost his Life BLISS JOHN Lance Corporal JOHN BLISS 376961, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment Previously served in the Durham light Infantry And the Yorkshire Light Infantry John was Killed in action age 31 on 24 September 1917 (edit the 14 Sept 1917) John was the Brother of James Bliss who also lost his life when his ship the SS Elve Bound For London was torpedoed on Oct 9th 1917 And the Son of David and Caroline Bliss,nee French of Cargo Fleet, Middlesbrough. And the widower of Catherine Veronica Bliss nee Sullivan His wife sadly died in 1916 ,Johns subsequent death left his three children as orphans Born South Bank enlisted Middlesbrough BRANDHOEK NEW MILITARY CEMETERY No.3 the above Photo is John Bliss and his three Children which leads to another question The Thee cheverons on the bottom of the sleeve of his left Arm what are they For Many thanks in advance for your assistance Ray EDIT there is a error in my typing John was Killed on the 14 sept 1917 not the 24th as above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 2 January , 2011 Share Posted 2 January , 2011 Ray Bliss' death is mentioned, almost in passing (and probably inaccurately as to date), in Ken Mitchison's history of the battalion "Amateur Soldiers". He notes that he was one of the three men to die that day and records him as having died of wounds, rather than KIA. The other two men he mentions were KIA on 10 September. With that inaccuracy, I'm unsure whether he's suggesting that Bliss was wounded on the 10th or not. If so, then he notes the battalion was around farm buildings, known as Kit & Kat, on the Frezenberg/Westhoek road. Of course, not out of the question that Bliss was held at a CCS at Brandhoek for two weeks, waiting to die but it seems a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seany Posted 2 January , 2011 Share Posted 2 January , 2011 Ray, I think the three stripes on his sleeve ar wound stripes indicating he was wounded on three occasions? which leads to another question The Thee cheverons on the bottom of the sleeve of his left Arm what are they For Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 2 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2011 JOHN Thanks John for the information I will try and borrow the book Ken Mitchison's history of the battalion "Amateur Soldiers From the Library a little more Knowledge never hurt anybody incidentally the information Source , the SDGW have him down as Killed in Action Would I be right in thinking that John Died During the Passchendale offensive ? SEANY I also suspected that the Chevron's were wound stripes I was just seeking confirmation I am trying to be as accurate as I can with my research I also noticed in the Photo that the second button down on his uniform is covered in black felt to signify the loss of a family member , if it was for his wife I could not find any other family member dieing around that time this would date the photo 1916 it is possible that he may have been given leave to attend the funeral Regards Ray I have edited the original Post john was Killed on the 14 Sept 1917 not the 24th Sept 1917 sorry myTyping error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 2 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2011 Here is a letter from the War Graves Commission addressed to family member regarding John Bliss Killed on the 14/Sept /1917 regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 2 January , 2011 Share Posted 2 January , 2011 Ray Date makes more sense now. He could have been KIA on the 14th - but I wonder if Mitchison is right - wounded on the 10th, along with the two men killed (buried I think at Ypres Reservoir Cem), evacuated to the CCS at Brandhoek and died on the 14th. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 2 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2011 HI John I had a look on SDGW this is what I have come up with 3 soldiers from the 1st/10 listed as Killed in action on the 10th Sept all Buried in Ypes town Center Cem Private GRANVILLE ROURKE 377161, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died age 24 on 10 September 1917 YPRES TOWN CEMETERY EXTENSION Lance Corporal ROBERT ROSCOE 377085, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died on 10 September 1917 YPRES TOWN CEMETERY EXTENSION Serjeant T POOLE 395001, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died on 10 September 1917 YPRES TOWN CEMETERY EXTENSION 4 soldiers listed as Killed in action on the 14th Sept all but one Buried Brandhoek Cem Lance Corporal JOHN BLISS 376961, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died age 31on 14 September 1917 BRANDHOEK NEW MILITARY CEMETERY No.3 Private J T SMITH 376362, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died on 14 September 1917 BRANDHOEK NEW MILITARY CEMETERY No.3 Private J CHAPPELL 375901, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died age 36 on 14 September 1917 BRANDHOEK NEW MILITARY CEMETERY No.3 Private REUBEN CROMPTON 375726, 1st/10th Bn., Manchester Regiment who died age 22 on 14 September 1917 HOOGE CRATER CEMETERY The error of the death dates re Bliss Crept in as SDGW shows date of death 14th CWGC shows 24th ? So we have 4 Soldiers Killed in Action on the 14th , all but one buried in Brandhoek Cem only a look at the war diarys may be able to shed some light on whether he was Killed in action on the 14th or wounded on the10th and died 14th My money is on him being killed on the 14th or perhaps we will never Know for sure regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 2 January , 2011 Share Posted 2 January , 2011 Ray On reflection, I think you're probably right. The three burials at Brandhoek sound like KIAs. As youy say, only the war diary is likely to bottom it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 3 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2011 thanks for the input John and finally Here is a photo of his late wife and his three Children who tragically lost both parent in the space of a year Behind the death of every soldier Killed in Action lies a story regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonsstar Posted 3 January , 2011 Share Posted 3 January , 2011 I'm I missing something as the cheverons at the bottom of his left arm are good conduct cheverons & not wounded badges hope this helps you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 3 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2011 I'm I missing something as the cheverons at the bottom of his left arm are good conduct cheverons & not wounded badges hope this helps you. It certanly helps thanks Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavidswarbrick Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Ray, Had some spare moments at Kew today - so I got this for you: reference WO 95/2658 War Diary 1st/10th Manchesters On 1st September 1917 1st/10th Battalion Manchester Regiment were out of the line in the Ypres area and in engaged in training exercises. On 3rd September the Battalion relieved the 1st/4th East Lancs in dug out at RAILWAY WOOD [brigade Support] – Relief complete 11.45 pm very successful. 4th September Battalion on fatigue & guards i.e. carrying ammunition for 126 Machine Gun Coy to firing line. Rations & water fatigues. 5th September A & B Companies doing fatigues – A & B Companies relieved A & B Companies of 1st/4th East Lancs – completed by 12.15 on the Sept. 6th only 3 casualties during the move. 6th September Early morning fairly quiet. Our artillery sent over quite a number of gas shells. At 7.45 am there was a general barrage on the enemies’ lines, an attack was delivered by our left. About 11.0 am the enemy delivered a counter attack preceded by heavy barrage, heavy firing continued until 1.30 pm. At 3.0 pm enemy aircraft flew very low over our lines for ¾ of an hour. Day very bright and warm. 4 pm Kit and Kat [sic] Battalion HQ heavily shelled for ½ an hour. 7.30 pm heavy barrages again put down by both sides followed by attack. At 10.30 pm another barrage was put over. No information yet as to the result of the attack this morning. 7th September The Commanding Officer got badly hit in the head this morning at about 1.10 pm and died at 3.25 pm. Heavy shelling of Kit and Kat at different periods. “A” Company sent out patrols around SANS SOUCI FARM but came across a strong fighting patrol & were forced to retire. 2/Lieutenant Williams missing. Battalion were relieved by 1st/5th East Lancs relief being complete at 1.30 am on the 8th. 8th September [bivouacked at Ypres – rest and clear up] 9th September Battalion moved up to Cambridge Road and took over from 1st/7th Manchester Regiment – had three casualties. 10th September Usual heavy firing A & B in the firing line, C in support & D in reserve. Heavy gas shelling all night. 11th September Heavy firing all day – no casualties 12th September Heavy barrages at different times of the day 13th September Battalion relieved by 1st/7th Manchester Regiment and marched by Ypres to same camping ground as formerly held. 14th September Rest 15th September New CO Company training in the morning “C” Company of this Battalion relieved one company of the 1st/5th East Lancs in Ypres. 16th September Inspection Fatigues No casualties 17th – 30th September Battalion out of the line – training & inspections and a series of route marches: WINNEZEELE VIA POPERINGHE ROADWATOU & DROGLANDT WINNEZEELE – WORMHOULDT WORMHOULDT – TETEGHEN via WILDER & CAIGHOEK TETGHEN to LA PANNE [battalion in Billets 25th September] Battalion still at La Panne on 30th September 1917 As your man died on the 24th or thereabouts it would seem from the above that he must have been wounded earlier. The diary does not seem to record casualties to O/Rs in any kind of systematic way, officers are - as usual - a different matter. I suspect that the three casualties on the 9th were the three lads mentioned earlier in the thread. Quite where that leaves your lad is a bit of a mystery. Hope that it's been of some use, Dave Swarbrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 The plot thickens. There's obviously no help from the war diary about Bliss or, indeed, the three men recorded as killed on the 14th. I would hazard a guess that the burial information of the three at Brandhoek supports the view that Bliss was also killed on ther 14th, not the 24th, as they are buried in adjacent graves - although this may only indicate they were originally buried elsewhere and were reinterred there. Perhaps a look at the cemetery records for dates of nearby burials might help - but I'm not sure what it would prove either way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Thanks Dave For taking the time to look up the war diary of the 1st/10th Battalion on my behalf I am deeply indebted I now have an insight into what the battalion were going through during the period Bliss was Killed even though is sheds no light into the circumstance of his death and the exact date of his death remains inconclusive I will add the War diary notes to my records on Bliss I have another 700 left to have a go at Looks like I will be at it for Quite a number of years Kind Regards Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Ray I've had a very cursory nosy at graves around these three and they all appear to be September burials so everything's contemporary. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndavidswarbrick Posted 4 January , 2011 Share Posted 4 January , 2011 Ray, You've probably already done this, but just in case, it's well worth checking the local papers for the relevant time frame. I have found in my own research that there is often a surprising depth to the coverage of the fate of local men. It's also worth checking if your local library has a local history section as you may well find contemporary church magazines which also carry details of men who served. Good hunting, Dave Swarbrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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