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ElaineW

Identification of uniform

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ElaineW

Can anyone help identify this uniform.

The person I am interested in is the one in the centre of the picture with the lighter band on his cap.

The image below is part of a postcard sized photo of the whole platoon. The postcard was sent to the soldier's parents c1918 and I believe it is stamped from Trowbridge.

FredOvenellforIDofuniform.jpg

Many thanks.

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4thGordons

Can anyone help identify this uniform.

The person I am interested in is the one in the centre of the picture with the lighter band on his cap.

The image below is part of a postcard sized photo of the whole platoon. The postcard was sent to the soldier's parents c1918 and I believe it is stamped from Trowbridge.

FredOvenellforIDofuniform.jpg

Many thanks.

Royal Artillery I think.

They look like junior officers perhaps even officer cadets as your man with the had band does not appear to have any badges of rank showing. Light bands of this nature seem to be related to officers in training (also sometimes officers refereeing exercises).

Chris

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acoy1stbatttigers

yes a Royal Artillery Officer cadet.

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FROGSMILE

Yes, an officer cadet, as are the men in the rows behind. Note that none have collar badges and all are wearing the leather belt from the 1903 bandolier equipment. They would obtain their Sam Browne belts on qualifying as trained officers.

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Piorun

One presumes that the lad in front was the senior cadet and thus given the honour of sitting at the front with the staff. I take it the other soldiers are also wearing white hat bands? Antony

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jay dubaya

No. 1 Officer Cadet School, Royal Garrison Artillery were based in Trowbridge

Jon

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ElaineW

One presumes that the lad in from was the senior cadet and thus given the honour of sitting at the front with the staff. I take it the other soldiers are also wearing white hat bands? Antony

Yes, there are about 30 men standing, all with white hat bands.

No. 1 Officer Cadet School, Royal Garrison Artillery were based in Trowbridge

Jon

Thanks Jon.

Any ideas where I might be able to find out more information about him, e.g. service history?

I don't have an army service number for him.

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ElaineW

I have another photo of the same man, seems to be in the same uniform, so at the moment at working on the fact that he was a cadet with the Royal Garrison Artillery

FredOvenell1917.jpg

There seems to be something just above the left breast pocket which I am presuming is some sort of medal ribbon but I'm not sure the scan is good enough for anyone to identify it. Any comments?

FredOvenellmedalribbon.jpg

I can find no reference in the WW1 medal cards - would a cadet be shown in these?

The soldier in question was born 1881, so would have been 36 or 37 in these photos - seems rather old for a cadet?

Does anyone know how long the training would be and when he was likely to be commissioned.

Did these cadets remain in England until their training was complete?

Am I correct in thinking that the records of soldiers whose service continued until after the end of the war are not available at TNA, and I would have to apply to the MoD.

Sorry a lot of questions here about researching the soldier rather than the uniform - am concerned I am now in the wrong section of the forum, in which case if one of the moderators wishes to move this thread to the correct forum then please do so.

Thanks in advance for any help.

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Piorun

Don't confuse cadet with officer-cadet. Quite possible that a ranker with gong could go on to officer-cadet school - although late thirties is quite old. Antony

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ElaineW

Sorry Piorun, what's a "ranker with gong" ?

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johntanner

Not great resolution on the medal ribbon but could be a DCM. Do we have a name for him as that might tne enable to cvonfirm his service history, including any time as an other rank?

John

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4thGordons

Sorry Piorun, what's a "ranker with gong" ?

A non-officer ("Other Ranks") who has been awarded a medal ("gong")

I think the idea being it became increasingly possible that men who had joined the non-commissioned ranks and performed well and especially if that performance was added to with a medal for bravery become officers (and therefore have to go through officer training as cadets)

The implication of this would be that there would be a service history prior to these photos where he served in the ranks.

Chris

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ElaineW

Do we have a name for him as that might tne enable to cvonfirm his service history, including any time as an other rank?

John

His name is Fred Ovenell - birth registered 1881 Oxford as Frederick Ovenell but all references I have to him are as Fred.

BUT he is not the Fred Ovenell shown on Ancestry

http://search.ancest...5124&recoff=1+2

http://search.ancest...5125&recoff=1+2

http://search.ancest...281&recoff=9+10

.. that is someone else (namely Benjamin Pryke) using Fred's identity!

Thanks for the "ranker with gong" explanation Chris.

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Piorun

Sorry for using jargon - and thanks to Chris for explaining it. This is some story, Elaine. At some point, that lad (Pryke) was court-martialled, likely for lying about his name, but was sent without trial to the Labour Corps. However, Labour Corps isn't noted on the MIC. He also seems to have had the cheek to apply for a Silver War Badge under his false name. If that isn't Fred's MIC, where is it?

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ElaineW

. If that isn't Fred's MIC, where is it?

That´s what we are trying to find out as well as some idea of where he served, but really don't know where to start!

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Piorun

Suggest you re-post under the Forum heading of "Soldiers" with a post title like "Find this Man - Fact or Fraud" and content along the lines of: "The man at right centre of the front row with the white hatband and what appears to be a gallantry ribbon his chest is supposed to be Fred Ovenell (registered at birth in 1888 as Frederick) and the photograph appears to show him as an artillery officer-cadet in or around 1918. However, the only records I can find in Ancestry are for a Fred Ovenell in the Hampshires who then appears to have been unmasked as one, Benjamin Pryke, who was sent compulorily to the Labour Corps. Can anyone help me find the real Fred Ovenell?" Or something like that. Sorry I can't suggest more but putting in a different sub-forum might attract more attention. All the best, Antony

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tony paley

Apologise if it has already been mentioned but with reference to the 'White Band'. everyone has gone down the 'Officer Cadet' road. I have numerous similar group photgraphs with the central figure wearing a white hat band in the uniform of an officer or warrant officer of the Royal Artillery. I think he is an Ack IG or SMIG. In other words a Gunnery Instructor. This explains the absence of White Bands on the other caps, and his central senior position in the photograph.

Tony P

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FROGSMILE

Apologise if it has already been mentioned but with reference to the 'White Band'. everyone has gone down the 'Officer Cadet' road. I have numerous similar group photgraphs with the central figure wearing a white hat band in the uniform of an officer or warrant officer of the Royal Artillery. I think he is an Ack IG or SMIG. In other words a . This explains the absence of White Bands on the other caps, and his central senior position in the photograph.

Tony P

If you look at post #9 you will see that the originator states that all those in the back rows also had white hat bands indicating that they were officer cadets.

I understand that Gunnery Instructors had white cap 'covers' rather than cap bands. They would also have worn collar badges and, if officers, Sam Browne belts.

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corisande

The OP started a new thread in soldiers but it has reached a dead end. To try to progress it, can I repeat here a question I put in that thread, as some of the readers here may know the answer

Can you fill me in on Officer cadet training at Trowbridge

1, Did they have a regular intake, say once a week/month or whatever. If so what was it

2. How many cadets per intake, in other words do the 40 men in the photo represent the sort of regular intake that there might have been

3. At the end of a course would one have expected to see them all gazetted together

And the OP did include in the other tread the full card of the course

FredOvenellPlatoongoodscan.jpg

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FROGSMILE

The OP started a new thread in soldiers but it has reached a dead end. To try to progress it, can I repeat here a question I put in that thread, as some of the readers here may know the answer

Can you fill me in on Officer cadet training at Trowbridge

1, Did they have a regular intake, say once a week/month or whatever. If so what was it

2. How many cadets per intake, in other words do the 40 men in the photo represent the sort of regular intake that there might have been

3. At the end of a course would one have expected to see them all gazetted together

And the OP did include in the other tread the full card of the course

FredOvenellPlatoongoodscan.jpg

I cannot answer your questions (but someone no doubt will) although I am interested to see the full photo for the first time. It is likely that the 3 cadets in the front are section or syndicate leaders and the one sat in pride of place is also either the 'course leader,, or its 'best student'.

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