Role of the 2nd Lieutenant

[Beau Geste]

Gary Sheffield's thesis is published (quite expensively, if I recall, and possibly a case for Inter-library loan) as Leadership in the Trenches: Officer-Man Relations, Morale and Discipline in the British Army in the Era of the First World War.

Ian[/size]

Thank you Ian (and you too Tim) for the reference recommendations. I look forward to reading them.

Harry

[Liz in Eastbourne]

As a subaltern, the 2nd Lieutenant, sometimes refered to as 'warts' was the general dog'sbody of the officer's mess. Some had specific responsibilities for a platoon or section, but tended to be used within a Company according to the needs of the Company commander. Some were allocated specific roles according to their personal choice or strengths eg sent on a bombing or Lewis gun course; signals, intelligence or medical courses and would become the company or battalion 'expert'. One in the 4th RWF in 1915 became the recognised jam tin grenade maker and thrower, and he had a group of men who specialised in this. In general they shadowed the more experienced Lieutenants and Captains, learning the trade, and when required assuming full responsibilities should their superiors become casualties. You had to be a very poor subaltern not to be promoted to full lieutenant.

After about how long would you reckon someone was a very poor subaltern because he was still a Second Lieutenant? A year? Less?

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks again for all comments on this thread.

I've learned today that my subject was conscripted.

Is this feasible if his entry date to France is given as 20th April 1916?

He was a school teacher on the outskirts of Edinburgh and had a degree from Edinburgh University.

According to the Long, Long Trail an officer would be offered a temporary position until fully trained. I'm wondering if my subject was a T2Lt as a result of this or whether he may have been appointed such in the trenches due to shortages? [as per Neil's example above]

...

I understood from the discussion on this thread Temporary Ranks that a Temporary 2 Lt was always someone whose commission was for the duration of the war - not a professional soldier. I have found a number of T2/Lts who were previously NCOs and then took a commission.

(Just realised that Ron has just posted an explanation - but the topic link may still be useful.)

Liz

[Beau Geste]

see, eg. thread entitled

life expectancy the 6-week subaltern

and thread

Lieutenants does anyone know it.?

Thanks Grumpy,

For some reason the search facility wouldn't reveal the first reference but the second was most interesting.

Harry

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Thanks Grumpy,

For some reason the search facility wouldn't reveal the first reference but the second was most interesting.

The longer thread on life expectancy is here and is even more interesting.

Liz

[geraint]

After about how long would you reckon someone was a very poor subaltern because he was still a Second Lieutenant? A year? Less?

Liz

Liz - I have no specific formula, but from reading memoires and comments made by officers, they were picked up fairly quickly on arrival at an unit, taken under the wing of a more experienced officer and sent back to garrison or home duties. They were seldom casheered..

History of 4th RWF by the adjutant describes "we had three new subs arrive, two of whom prooved themselves to be excellent companions and officers, and immediately won the men's respect..." The third, after a few days, took to his dug-out,... and was soon sent back to a safe base depot." Then the author philosophises a while on the nature of leadership and 'windyness'.

Once the weak were filtered out, my understanding of the promotional prospects within the 4th RWF seemed to be about 4-5 months. New officer batches arrive, others depart or are casualties, and existing officers are promoted within companies. 4th were a front line pioneer TF, though the officers were regular army. I should think that it was representative of other infantry battalions.

[unitedsound]

Thanks for commenting Grumpy as this gives me an opportunity to learn more.

My relative arrived in France on 20/4/1916 according to his MIC.

He was killed 12 weeks later, to the day, attacking Longueval.

I am not an expert on WW1 but have become totally engrossed with it as can be seen by the unbelievable amount of posts I've made as a Family Tree enthusiast in just under 3 years.

However, from what I have gathered T2Lt John Meikle Bain would probably have gone to Etaples first and foremost. For how long I don't know. Maybe a week or two.

He then travelled to what has been described as a quiter than usual Ploegsteert/La Bizet/Steenwerke where he remained for several weeks.

His battalion then moved to Amiens and Somme where he met his maker.

So by my calculations he wasn't far off the 6 weeks mark if we are talking dangerous environs.

Thanks again

David

[unitedsound]

Hi Tim

Thanks for your comments and book reference.

My subject was 35 years old when he was killed so I'm perhaps leaning towards him applying for an Officers Post when the offer came up in early 1916.

The blurb in his epitaph is that he "enlisted" in 1916.

He had been a "pupil teacher" and "teacher" for a number of years therefore I'm unsure if he ever went through OTC as a young man.

I'm trying to find out more from Edinburgh University regards old record but still await a reply

David

[unitedsound]

Ron

Thanks for the "L plate" detail.

David

[unitedsound]

Liz

Thanks for the "Temporary Ranks" link.

I use the search facility all the time, but that one I missed.

cheers

David

[Beau Geste]

The longer thread on life expectancy is here and is even more interesting.

Liz

Thanks Liz

Harry

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Liz - I have no specific formula, but from reading memoires and comments made by officers, they were picked up fairly quickly on arrival at an unit, taken under the wing of a more experienced officer and sent back to garrison or home duties. They were seldom casheered..
History of 4th RWF by the adjutant describes "we had three new subs arrive, two of whom prooved themselves to be excellent companions and officers, and immediately won the men's respect..." The third, after a few days, took to his dug-out,... and was soon sent back to a safe base depot." Then the author philosophises a while on the nature of leadership and 'windyness'.
Once the weak were filtered out, my understanding of the promotional prospects within the 4th RWF seemed to be about 4-5 months. New officer batches arrive, others depart or are casualties, and existing officers are promoted within companies. 4th were a front line pioneer TF, though the officers were regular army. I should think that it was representative of other infantry battalions.

Thanks, Geraint, that's useful. I am just trying to evaluate the various Temporary Second Lieutenants in the Yeoman Rifles, the 21st (service) battalion of the KRRC. Several were promoted when they left for France in May 1916, about 6 months after being commissioned, but I think there are a couple who were evidently not liabilities but were still 2nd Lieutenants when they went into action at Flers. But might there be a difference where the officers were regular army? They might be expected to move faster.

Liz

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Just following up on my last comment: as far as I can see, in the 21st (service) Bn of the KRRC, nine Temporary Second Lieutenants were casualties in 1916: five killed (two killed in action at Flers 15 Sept, one died of wounds shortly after that, one killed in action and one died of wounds at Gird Ridge October 5-10) and four wounded in the same actions. One appears to have been the Battalion intelligence officer, and the others were leading platoons. Most of them were commissioned the previous autumn. I've taken these from the KRRC Officers' Casualty List which has occasional errors as to rank at the time specified but I think it's about right.

So they did have a very responsible role and were not just assisting Lieutenants. Was this an exceptionally long period to remain as Second Lieutenants? Or not particularly slow for Temporary Second Lieutenants? Those with previous experience in other regiments or other battalions were naturally more likely to be promoted Lieutenant sooner. There had been five of those in January 1916.

Liz

[Muerrisch]

Liz, I expect you know this but here goes, it might help others:

an infantry battalion at War Establishment comprised just over 1000 all ranks.

The building block was the platoon, of which there were 16, each nominally commanded by a subaltern [of one rank or another], and each assisted / deputised by a full sergeant. Depending on strength, about 4 sections of up to about 8 men, each commanded by a corporal [or Lance-sergeant or Lance-corporal]. Additionaly the offeicer had a batman. For admin purposes, as opposed to combat, the signallers [an officer was responsible] and some other specialists might might or might not be allocated to a platoon, but certainly to a company. There were 4 companies, each of about 200 all ranks, commanded by a captain or major, mounted, with a captain as 2 i/c. Admin was looked after by a CQMS, and discipline by a CSM. Drummers were intrinsic to companies, 4 to each, but could be paraded as a corps of drums under the Sergeant Drummer. Pioneers were usually kept under the hand of the headquarters .... there was no such thing as a HQ company, but the CO [a Lieutenant-colonel, with a Senior Major as 2 i/c] grouped the Transport [under a subaltern, and very large, with about 50 'orses] and the MG section [another subaltern] centrally. Scouts were grouped or not according to circumstances, and a sergeant was i/c for most of the war. The QM usually supervised the transport, and his staff, headed by an RQMS, did the 'things' admin, whilst the adjutant [a captain or senior sub] did the 'people' admin, with rhe RSM as his principal assistant. There was an orderly room staff under a senior sergeant, and a medical section under a qualified doctor, responsible for the sanitation and water as well as bodies. The band, under the band sergeant [the Bandmaster did not leave Home] was used as stretcher bearers, augmented as necessary.

Of course, War Establishment was rarely achieved, even late in August 1914, with many subaltern vacancies, leaving experienced sergeants to run the platoons.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Liz, I expect you know this but here goes, it might help others:

an infantry battalion at War Establishment comprised just over 1000 all ranks.

<,snip>

Of course, War Establishment was rarely achieved, even late in August 1914, with many subaltern vacancies, leaving experienced sergeants to run the platoons.

That's a very generous expectation, Grumpy, in view of the narrowness and recent acquisition of my knowledge. I did print it all off from the LLT and keep referring to it but still this is very useful for me and others. This is off the topic of this thread but I had forgotten the bit about the bandsmen being stretcher-bearers, and this fits very neatly with what I'd just been transcribing about the 21/KRRC - a bugler being a stretcher-bearer at Flers.

Going back, could I ask - do you make any assumptions about the Temp. EDIT Second Lts of the new battalions who have not yet been promoted after about ten months? Or is it quite usual even when they have been leading platoons for some time?

Liz

Missed out 'second', sorry.

Edited 14 January , 2011 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Muerrisch]

If we are talking 2Lts here, I don't think any judgement can be made ..... as 2Lt/Lt was "fluid complementing", if a man was doing his job OK as 2Lt there was no great point in rushing his promotion. Also, the officer casualty rate of the unit has a bearing ultimately ...... there was always a need to fill captains vacancies by captains, hence Lts promotions, hence some trickle up for 2Lt.

[truthergw]

If we are talking 2Lts here, I don't think any judgement can be made ..... as 2Lt/Lt was "fluid complementing", if a man was doing his job OK as 2Lt there was no great point in rushing his promotion. Also, the officer casualty rate of the unit has a bearing ultimately ...... there was always a need to fill captains vacancies by captains, hence Lts promotions, hence some trickle up for 2Lt.

Am I correct in thinking that a 2nd Lt. could not simply be promoted to Lieutenant because he had proven to be proficient? I assumed he would have to wait until there was a vacancy? I think we are saying the same thing but I am emphasising that there could be a variable number of 2nd Lts but the number of Lts was more strictly controlled.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Am I correct in thinking that a 2nd Lt. could not simply be promoted to Lieutenant because he had proven to be proficient? I assumed he would have to wait until there was a vacancy? I think we are saying the same thing but I am emphasising that there could be a variable number of 2nd Lts but the number of Lts was more strictly controlled.

This is useful - could I ask in that case, how was that number controlled? Doesn't the fact that you could have a 2/Lt or a Lt in command of a platoon make both numbers variable?

Also please could someone explain this from the LG (14 Dec 1915) :

KR RifC

Second Lieutenant (on probation) John F. B. Ewen, from The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment) (Special Reserve).

Dated 4th December, 1915

Given that the job already has an L-plate, what's the implication of 'on probation' and why would he have this?

Liz

[Muerrisch]

I am thinking [?] about the Lt establishment issue.

Meanwhile, I believe SR 2Lts were always posted to active service battalions initially on probation

[PhilB]

I am thinking [?] about the Lt establishment issue.

Meanwhile, I believe SR 2Lts were always posted to active service battalions initially on probation

Were they on probation in the sense that the colonel of the battalion could choose not to retain them? And, if so, how would they be disposed of?

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I am thinking [?] about the Lt establishment issue.

Meanwhile, I believe SR 2Lts were always posted to active service battalions initially on probation

Thanks for your help on this. I need to bone up on what this (SR) means exactly. The list of other 2Lts for the 21/KRRC in the same month has none from the Special Reserve and none of them are on probation. Some of them are straight from school. That makes them seem a more risky proposition to me than the Special Reserve ones , but they've got nowhere in the army to go back to, is that relevant? Is that how the SR 2/Lts would be disposed of, if unsatisfactory, to take up Phil's question? Sent back?

Liz

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Liz

I had a look at the 1914 Pay Warrant. Whilst this was produced in Dec 1914 and has some material which reflects the war situation, it basically reflects peacetime practice.

An officer of any rank up to major could be promoted to the next higher rank provided that three conditions were observed:

1. He had passed whatever professional exams were required;

2. There was a vacancy in the higher rank;

3. The consent of the Secretary of State had been obrained.

In the RA and RE, a second-lieutenant could be promoted to lieutenant in the absence of a vacancy (vcondition 2) after THREE years. There was no similar provision for cavalry or infantry.

Condition 3 was fairly automatic - it was a device to preserve parliamentary control of the Army - and I don't think there was a qualifying exam at this level, but I am sure the recommendation of his CO would have been required for such a promotion. It wartime any period in the lower rank is likely to have been much less that three years: witness Rudyard Kipling's son John, who was officially promoted lieutenant only just before he was killed in 1915.

Ron

[bill24chev]

Compared with the German army (in 1914) the role of the Subaltern, both 2nd Lt & Lt gave them less responsibilty. For example,in 1914 Bloem, a Captain, was a Coy commander and he had two subalterns in his company of about 250 men.

Corrigan, sugests that the duties of a platoon commander, man management, admin. and minor tactics could easily be carried out by a SNCO. The reason that the British Army employed subalterns as platoon commnders was to get them aquainted with the men who came from a social class that would have been a different world from their experiences. Although he was talking about WW2 it would be equally applicable to the BEF of 1914 and the service battalions when they formed.

As previously stated the 2nd lt. was learning the job but casualties often meant that they either became casualties or, if reasonably competent, were promoted (if only to acting ranks ) before they had realy learned the job.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Hello Liz

I had a look at the 1914 Pay Warrant. Whilst this was produced in Dec 1914 and has some material which reflects the war situation, it basically reflects peacetime practice.

An officer of any rank up to major could be promoted to the next higher rank provided that three conditions were observed:

1. He had passed whatever professional exams were required;

2. There was a vacancy in the higher rank;

3. The consent of the Secretary of State had been obrained.

<snip>

Thank you, Ron.

I've just come across a Temp. officer who was almost instantly promoted to Lieutenant after being commissioned, and I wondered if sheer age and maturity could account for this.

He was a London stockbroker who attested for the Wiltshire Regt on 1 Sept 1914, giving his age as 34 although he was about to turn 40,

was discharged and then commissioned on 7 Nov into the 10th Leicester Regt (I gather from the LLT that it was a reserve battalion),

this was cancelled on 10 Nov

and he was appointed a Temp Lt on 19 Nov.

Exactly a year later he went to the KRRC (21st Bn) as a Temp. Captain.

Seems like a pretty rapid rise...but I suppose those three conditions could all have been satisfied in the circumstances of the time, even though he clearly had no experience at all as a Second Lieutenant..

Liz

[Muerrisch]

Interesting.

I have had a good look through my voluminous references, and beyond stating the obvious that after 4 August the rules for 2Lt to Lt promotion, if any, were in abeyance, I really don't know.

Intriguingly the August Army List 1914 has numbers in brackets after each rank list: usually

Lt-Col x 2

Major x 8

Captains 14

Lts 20

2Lts 12

there are a few small variations BUT THESE ARE NOT TOTALS OF OFFICERS LISTED therefore may be/ must be? the number authorised. I call them pseudo-totals ..... nearly correct when compared with the officers on the lists, but only to within +/- a couple.

There will be a conflict between "War Establishment" [WE] and the accepted peacetime requirement of the 2, or 4, regular battalions of a regiment. What this peacetime requirement was is not stated, but it has to be [assume 2 battalions], and I suppose is reflected in the pseudo-totals.

Lt-Col x 2

Majors x 3 at least [one as 2ic each battalion, one as i/c the depot

Majors/ Captains x about 20 [to command 8 companies, to be 2ic 8 companies, to be 2 ic depot, to be attached to the SR battalion and several TF battalions, to be available for attached duty eg colonies, to be sick, to be in transit, to be on courses ......

Subalterns x at least 30, for company duties, courses etc see above.

A battalion at Home was established very thinly and relied on SR subalterns to make up the WE. Most of these would be 2Lts, inevitably [as an example, RWF had only regular 6 2Lts in total when war was declared.

A battalion in India eg was much stronger, and was kept up to nominal strength by postings from Home.

I rather think that the fluid complementing in peace between the various subalterns was governed by supply and demand within limits, and in war even more so.

Perhaps the subject is rather like the matter of brevet promotion ...... it was understood at the time by those who needed to know, and is beyond modern analysis.