unitedsound Posted 26 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Thanks again for all comments on this thread. I've learned today that my subject was conscripted. Is this feasible if his entry date to France is given as 20th April 1916? He was a school teacher on the outskirts of Edinburgh and had a degree from Edinburgh University. According to the Long, Long Trail an officer would be offered a temporary position until fully trained. I'm wondering if my subject was a T2Lt as a result of this or whether he may have been appointed such in the trenches due to shortages? [as per Neil's example above] Finally where would an Edinburgh University Graduate train to become an officer? Hope someone can help fill in these voids. TIA David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Hi David. Just wondering if he had experience as an officer before, seeing as he was 35 years old, just a thought. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 A 2nd Lieutenant would command a platoon. It could also be commanded by a Lieutenant, but there would not be more than one officer in a platoon. There might not be one at all at a time of heavy casualties, with the most senior NCO taking temporary command. Not so, I fear. The BEF went to France 1914 with many platoons commanded by sergeants. This shortfall was never made up fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 2nd Lts and Lts ["subalterns"] were supposed to be interchangeable with a few exceptions, and one to each of the 16 platoons. The exceptions were generally: 2nd Lts were not appointed Transport Officer, nor Machine Gun Officer, nor Signals Officer, nor Assistant Adjt if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 I wonder if, given a blank sheet of paper and asked to draw up a scheme for running an army, anyone would come up with the existing system. The closest approach to the military is probably the police and I don`t think they would put an inspector on the streets with a Sandhurst type training. Even the brightest subaltern arrives with limited utility and putting him/her in nominal charge of a platoon run by an experienced NCO is a convenient way to warehouse them while they learn the job. Police style accelerated promotion, with all entrants starting as privates seems to have a lot to offer, though it might deter some! This is a false comparison: police constables are de facto officers, not privates. Try comparing my daughter or son-in-law with private soldiers. Would be advised to wait until daughter is not on police horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 So, officers below the rank of captain (Lt and 2/Lt) were subalterns, and I believe majors and above are field officers...what about captains themselves? Captains! The strata are: subaltern: 2Lt and Lt Captain Field Officer: Major, Lt-Col, Col, Brigadier General Officer: Major-General and upwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitedsound Posted 26 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Thanks Mike, I take your point. All I have to go on is the detail on this image. It's interesting that the image calls JMB a Lieutenant. Does anyone know what type of uniform this is? Just remembered that he was with 10th SR before being killed with the 9th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 26 December , 2010 Share Posted 26 December , 2010 Thanks for clearing that one up for me, Grumpy. Captains were indeed in a league of their own! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 27 December , 2010 Share Posted 27 December , 2010 Thanks Mike, I take your point. All I have to go on is the detail on this image. It's interesting that the image calls JMB a Lieutenant. Does anyone know what type of uniform this is? Just remembered that he was with 10th SR before being killed with the 9th. Its the uniform of a Scottish Officer in a rifles regiment (with their black buttons), so Scottish Rifles fits perfectly - unfortunately it appears to be a cuff-rank jacket with a single stripe of braid just visible at the edges, which would be correct for either a 2nd Lieutenant (one pip) or a full Lieutenant (two pips). I'm slightly torn as there might be the hint of a single pip visible on his left shoulder (some period photos show the braid still worn on the cuffs but the pip itself moved or worn on the shoulder). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitedsound Posted 27 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 27 December , 2010 Thanks for your reply Andrew. I have one more image whih may help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 Your man sports a single strap to the Sam Browne, worn diagonally, as opposed to two straps worn vertically as was normal for The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). During wartime, however, this isn't all that unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 Your man sports a single strap to the Sam Browne, worn diagonally, as opposed to two straps worn vertically as was normal for The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles). During wartime, however, this isn't all that unusual. All Officers at this time were, in theory, supposed to have a Sam Browne and two cross-straps for it, as even wearing a fairly light set-up of pistol holster, ammunition pouch, sword frog and perhaps a water bottle in the field will make the set overbalanced on one side if they're not both worn together to distribute the weight more evenly. I know the mentioning of the Cameronians distinction comes more under dress regulations for behind the lines use, but it's worth mentioning this as to decide an Officer was with them or not just on the basis of how many cross-straps he had on his Sam Browne could well be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrieduncan Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 Valid point, but I didn't claim that the wearing of one or two straps was the way to decide if an officer was a Cameronian. I did state that in wartime it is not unusual to see a Cameronian officer wearing only the one strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 I am not sure that the Household Division would be very happy at having it described as a 'pip'; I seem to remember that they prefer 'star'. You could be right Nigel but in the fifteen years that I served in The Blues not once did I hear them referred to as "stars". Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 28 December , 2010 Share Posted 28 December , 2010 As an RRW Officer once said to me: "Oranges have pips, Officers wear stars". [/quote) For the six or seven years before gaining my majority, I must have been an orange ! Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unitedsound Posted 12 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2011 A million thanks to Harry (Beau Geste) for recommending this book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Weeks-Gallant-British-Officer/dp/0297860062/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292958259&sr=8-1 What a great and informative read about Great War Subalterns. cheers David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 12 January , 2011 Share Posted 12 January , 2011 except the 6 weeks is a load of cobblers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piorun Posted 12 January , 2011 Share Posted 12 January , 2011 Thanks again for all comments on this thread. Finally where would an Edinburgh University Graduate train to become an officer? Hope someone can help fill in these voids. TIA David Possibly, as an undergraduate, in the Edinburgh University Officers' Training Corps. Antony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 12 January , 2011 Share Posted 12 January , 2011 The last officer to have seen action in France, Norman Porteous, was also an Edinburgh University graduate who went into the Scottish Rifles. He was sent to a reserve unit just outside Norwich to learn basic training and then onto an officers training unit. From there he was commissioned into the 13th Royal Scots. A Territorial Army commission works in a similar fashion today. Incidently, the wearing of a Sam Browne belt in single strap mode is very common as part of walking out dress, the one most commnly seen in portrait shots. Regards, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Godden Posted 12 January , 2011 Share Posted 12 January , 2011 By all means read 'Six Weeks' but frame it with some firsthand accounts. Also, Gary Sheffield wrote his thesis on Officer-Man relations, which will help to shed further light on this subject. I have to say, I did not get on with 'Six Weeks'. I felt Peter Parker's 'The Old Lie' captured the ethos and life more accurately, though with a more public schoool angle rather than those who attended grammar schools or were commisioned from the ranks. Regards, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Riley Posted 12 January , 2011 Share Posted 12 January , 2011 By all means read 'Six Weeks' but frame it with some firsthand accounts. Also, Gary Sheffield wrote his thesis on Officer-Man relations, which will help to shed further light on this subject. I have to say, I did not get on with 'Six Weeks'. I felt Peter Parker's 'The Old Lie' captured the ethos and life more accurately, though with a more public schoool angle rather than those who attended grammar schools or were commisioned from the ranks. Regards, Tim Gary Sheffield's thesis is published (quite expensively, if I recall, and possibly a case for Inter-library loan) as Leadership in the Trenches: Officer-Man Relations, Morale and Discipline in the British Army in the Era of the First World War. Officer-man relationships are also explored in, for instance, Helen McCartney's book Citizen Soldiers. The Liverpool Territorials in the First World War, albeit within the context of two Territorial battalions, both with a fairly affluent middle-class background but which widened their officer recuiting base during the war Click here for a random review Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Geste Posted 13 January , 2011 Share Posted 13 January , 2011 except the 6 weeks is a load of cobblers! I'd appreciate it Grumpy if you would expand a little on this view. Harry A million thanks to Harry (Beau Geste) for recommending this book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Weeks-Gallant-British-Officer/dp/0297860062/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292958259&sr=8-1 What a great and informative read about Great War Subalterns. cheers David I'm glad you enjoyed it David. Harry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 13 January , 2011 Share Posted 13 January , 2011 I'd appreciate it Grumpy if you would expand a little on this view. Harry I'm glad you enjoyed it David. Harry see, eg. thread entitled life expectancy the 6-week subaltern and thread Lieutenants does anyone know it.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 13 January , 2011 Share Posted 13 January , 2011 Captains! The strata are: subaltern: 2Lt and Lt Captain Field Officer: Major, Lt-Col, Col, Brigadier General Officer: Major-General and upwards. Grumpy That is the post-1928 grouping. In WW1, Brigadier-Generals were general officers, although this was only a temporary appointment whilst hollding a particular command or staff post. The badge was a crossed sword and baton. In 1920 someone decided that they should no longer receive allowances at the general officer rates, they were renamed colonels-commandant, and given the badge of a crown and three stars. The title was changed again, to brigadier, in 1928. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 13 January , 2011 Share Posted 13 January , 2011 According to the Long, Long Trail an officer would be offered a temporary position until fully trained. I'm wondering if my subject was a T2Lt as a result of this or whether he may have been appointed such in the trenches due to shortages? [as per Neil's example above] David David Be careful not to confuse two different concepts here. A second-lieutenant is essentially a lieutenant with an L plate. They were normally promoted to lieutenant after a specified period, or sooner on account of conduct in the field. Temorary 2nd-Lt, etc, refers to the fact that virtually all officers commissioned during the war were commissioned on a temporary basis, so that the Army could "lay them off" at the end of the war. Thus, a T/2Lt's next appointment would be as T/Lt. There is even a case of a civilian railway expert (Sir Sam Fay) receiving his first military commission as a Temporary General! Grumpy is right to say that on the outbreak of war, many platoons were commanded by sergeants, but this was because of a shortage of officers. The War Establishments tables provided that there should be enough subalterns to put one in command of each platoon. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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