Role of the 2nd Lieutenant

[unitedsound]

I'm having difficulty finding detail of the responsibilities of the 2nd Lieutenant.

What was their day to day role in the Battalion?

How many were in the Battalion?

What was their role as the unit came out of the trenches to attack the enemy?

In Memory of T2nd Lieutenant John Meikle Bain, 9th Scottish Rifles, who was KIA at Longueval on 14th July 1916.

TIA

David

[dycer]

From Men and N.C.O's the 2nd Luie's job was ignored,apart from him making sure his Men,were well fed,their rifles were clean,and their feet were dried and socks changed.

He also inspired them to climb out of the trenches and attack.

George

[Capt_Starlight]

To die ?

[ander11]

Hello david , I think they had the hardest role in the army ( just following orders from higher up the chain of command)

best reguards

Ian

[Guest]

Was a 2nd Lt's role to take command of the platoon if the Lt was killed/wounded, like a L/Cpl would take command of the section if Cpl was wounded/killed?

Or am I haverin' again?

Mike

[27thBN]

Was a 2nd Lt's role to take command of the platoon if the Lt was killed/wounded, like a L/Cpl would take command of the section if Cpl was wounded/killed?

Or am I haverin' again?

Mike

I agree totally

[Gibbo]

A 2nd Lieutenant would command a platoon. It could also be commanded by a Lieutenant, but there would not be more than one officer in a platoon. There might not be one at all at a time of heavy casualties, with the most senior NCO taking temporary command.

[geraint]

As a subaltern, the 2nd Lieutenant, sometimes refered to as 'warts' was the general dog'sbody of the officer's mess. Some had specific responsibilities for a platoon or section, but tended to be used within a Company according to the needs of the Company commander. Some were allocated specific roles according to their personal choice or strengths eg sent on a bombing or Lewis gun course; signals, intelligence or medical courses and would become the company or battalion 'expert'. One in the 4th RWF in 1915 became the recognised jam tin grenade maker and thrower, and he had a group of men who specialised in this. In general they shadowed the more experienced Lieutenants and Captains, learning the trade, and when required assuming full responsibilities should their superiors become casualties. You had to be a very poor subaltern not to be promoted to full lieutenant.

[Guest]

Thanks Geraint, very useful. So a Subaltern was a 2nd Lt, and a Lt was not a Subaltern?

Cheers Mike

[Maricourt]

Both would be regarded at Subalterns or "Subs".

There are many WW1 memoirs you can read - "A Subaltern's War" by Charles Edmonds or Robert Graves' "Goodbye to All That" would be good introductions into the life of a Subaltern on the Western front.

Regards ... Maricourt

[David B]

We live and learn. I believed that a subaltern was a 2nd Lieutenant, but that this forum has straightened this out and it appears that officers below

the rank of Captain are subalterns. Suggest that a 2nd Lt was really a newly commissioned officer still learning the ropes and eventually he would

be promoted to Lieut after he became proficient in his duties.

David

[Guest]

From HERE

" The lowest rank of commissioned officer. Note that a Subaltern is a term applied to any officer below the rank of captain, especially a second lieutenant. Derivation from Latin related to the word for alternate."

Mike

[Piorun]

I seem to recall that a 2/Lt's job was to listen and do what he was told, especially by Staff-Sergeants. It was better to stay out of the way of Captains and other brass. RSM's were certain death. Antony

[geraint]

Yes - subaltern was a lieutenant whether a second or a first. Some of the 'posher' regiments didn't even allow a sub to speak in the mess without being first spoken to. But the war changed that attitude as ors and ncos and civilians in the new army gained commissions. There are instances of young warts who didn't make the grade, failed to win the mens', or their fellow officers' confidence, and were filtered out quickly to staff posts.

[Beau Geste]

I think I'm right in saying that in the Blues and Royals and, I believe, at least one other cavalry regiment the rank of "cornet" is still used to describe a new and very junior officer. He is, of course, a second lieutenant (one pip) and his influence is restricted by his inevitable inexperience of pretty much all things military. He operates in theory as a troop commander but in practice he's there to learn and generally speaking it is the senior troop NCO who will command the troop and act as the young officer's mentor.

Kind regards,

Harry

[Beau Geste]

To die ?

I'm in the process of reading "Six Weeks: The Short and Gallant Life of the British Officer in The First World War" by John Lewis-Stempel and the focus is mainly on the roles, resposibilities and experiences of junior officers during those awful years. In a sense Starlight, the title says it all so your short and succinct posting could hardly be more accurate.

I strongly recommend Lewis-Stempel's book to anyone who hasn't already read it.

Harry

[squirrel]

I think I'm right in saying that in the Blues and Royals and, I believe, at least one other cavalry regiment the rank of "cornet" is still used to describe a new and very junior officer.....

Harry

2nd Lieutenant

Household Cavalry WW1 - Lifeguards and Royal Horseguards - "Cornet"

Foot Guards WW1 - Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots, Irish, Welsh Guards - "Ensign"

[PhilB]

I wonder if, given a blank sheet of paper and asked to draw up a scheme for running an army, anyone would come up with the existing system. The closest approach to the military is probably the police and I don`t think they would put an inspector on the streets with a Sandhurst type training. Even the brightest subaltern arrives with limited utility and putting him/her in nominal charge of a platoon run by an experienced NCO is a convenient way to warehouse them while they learn the job. Police style accelerated promotion, with all entrants starting as privates seems to have a lot to offer, though it might deter some!

[unitedsound]

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question.

I'm going to plump for Beau Geste's suggestion which has a quality rating at Amazon.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Six-Weeks-Gallant-British-Officer/dp/0297860062/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1292958259&sr=8-1

cheers

David

[Beau Geste]

2nd Lieutenant

Household Cavalry WW1 - Lifeguards and Royal Horseguards - "Cornet"

Foot Guards WW1 - Grenadier, Coldstream, Scots, Irish, Welsh Guards - "Ensign"

Thank you Squirrel and unless I'm mistaken the Queen's Own Hussars retains the title "cornet" as well.

Harry

[squirrel]

Harry,

it is the idiosyncratic nature of the customs and traditions of the regiments of the British Army that make up for the frustration of trying to understand them!

Cheers,

Tony

[nigelcave]

I think I'm right in saying that in the Blues and Royals and, I believe, at least one other cavalry regiment the rank of "cornet" is still used to describe a new and very junior officer. He is, of course, a second lieutenant (one pip) and his influence is restricted by his inevitable inexperience of pretty much all things military. He operates in theory as a troop commander but in practice he's there to learn and generally speaking it is the senior troop NCO who will command the troop and act as the young officer's mentor.

Kind regards,

Harry

I am not sure that the Household Division would be very happy at having it described as a 'pip'; I seem to remember that they prefer 'star'.

[squirrel]

As an RRW Officer once said to me: "Oranges have pips, Officers wear stars".

[barrieduncan]

So, officers below the rank of captain (Lt and 2/Lt) were subalterns, and I believe majors and above are field officers...what about captains themselves?

[nthornton1979]

Many 2/Lt's led trench raids. Or if the raid was of a larger scale they would command one 'party' of the raid. I have a few groups to 2/Lt's who done this. I have one medal group in my collection to a chap who was a Pte and led a raid as a Temp 2/Lt, bagging himself an MC in the process.

I'd imagine they led a lot of patrols aswell.

Neil