macfarro Posted 20 December , 2010 Share Posted 20 December , 2010 Hi I'm looking for any info on the following: James Fitzsimons 14/14609 MM gazetted 21/10/1916 John H(enry) Fitzsimons 14/14603 died 1/7/1916 Family legend has it that James saw his brother (John) killed and was so incensed he performed some action which earnd him the MM. He was Badly wounded but survived the war, eventually reaching the rank of Captain. Is it possible to find the citation for MM's? thanks Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verrico2009 Posted 21 December , 2010 Share Posted 21 December , 2010 I don't think it's easy to find the citations for MMs unfortunately, Rob - but you'll see in this article there is mention of "the difference between gazetting dates and the actual action dates...can be approximated to three or four months for most awards", which might give some support to the family legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macfarro Posted 22 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 22 December , 2010 Many thanks for the link, the timing could well be right. I didn't realise there were so many awarded during the war - approx 115,000 best regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Wright Posted 23 December , 2010 Share Posted 23 December , 2010 John Henry Fitzsimons was born in Coagh-5 miles from Cookstown--he is included in "Cookstown War Dead" published in 2007 (I was joint author). He went to France on 2nd October 1915. Did not know about his brother. Hopefully next year all the men and woman in the book will be on the web. Wesley Wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macfarro Posted 23 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 23 December , 2010 Thanks Wesley - I'll look out for the online publication next year. Btw I have since heard that James's original MM was presented by the family to 'The Somme Museum' a few years ago - so they may have a copy of the citation, I'm not however sure how many Somme museums there are. I'll keep looking regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 24 December , 2010 Share Posted 24 December , 2010 Due to the Irish connection, could "The Somme Museum" actually be the one in County Down? Contact Details: Somme Heritage Centre, 233 Bangor Road, Newtownards County Down BT23 7PH Email: enquiry.shc@hotmail.co.uk Tel: (028) 9182 3202 Fax: (028) 9182 3214 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Wright Posted 24 December , 2010 Share Posted 24 December , 2010 Just to confirm James went to France on 5th October 1915--strange thing on medal index card his MM is "scored out"? I can confirm the address of Somme museum is correct as in prevoius reply. I know the "boss" there, so any help just shout Wesley Wright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 24 December , 2010 Share Posted 24 December , 2010 The MIC also says "refer to Fitzsimons James Edward" (or perhaps "Ident"?) as that MIC is spelled as FitzsimMons... inferring there may be another MIC... which turns up further down, crossreferencing to the FitzsimMonds MIC, showing rank as Sjt and no reference to MM..... There is a further MIC for a James Fitzsimons 10488 with reference to SWB... also a John Fitzsimmons (cross referenced to JAMES FitzsimMons 10/14610 with date of entry as 4th Oct1915 (James 2 MIC's show 5th Oct) Is this his brother, which you show as 14/14603? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macfarro Posted 24 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 24 December , 2010 Thank you for your interest, my starting point was the mention of i) One brother died on the first day of the Somme and ii) as I described above, that the second brother saw him killed and did something that merited the MM and iii) that both were RIR According to CWGC there is only one Fitzsimons from the RIR killed on 1st July and he has service no. 14/14603 - and from that I got the name John According to the London Gazette there is only one Fitzsimons from the RIR who was awarded the MM between the beginning of Jan 1916 and the end of 1918 and he has service no.14/14609 and the name James. My take on the different MIC's was that the spelling was wrong (Fitzsimmons) and that the 1915 star was issued incorrectly so a second correct MIC was drawn up for the other campaign medals. The SWB is a very interesting point as the surviving brother was badly wounded by machine gun fire during whatever earned the MM and suffered for the rest of his life so why is there no mention on the MIC with the MM? Could he have been renumbered? p.s I first read the comment on the MIC as 'Edward' but came to the conclusion it was 'Ident' Thanks for the link to the Somme Museum, I'll email them after the holidays thanks again for your help regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macfarro Posted 30 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2010 Reading LLT I understand the SWB was awarded to those who were discharged under Kings Regulations as no longer physically fit and, since he was wounded but remained in the service he would not have been awarded the badge. Is this correct? regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnny_doyle Posted 2 January , 2011 Share Posted 2 January , 2011 wasn't there an issue with Eamonn Holmes and his grandfather and granduncle being Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons? Possibly James and John Fitzsimons in the 1901 census http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tyrone/Cookstown/Union_St/1729039/ MM gazette for Sjt J Fitzsimons 14/14609 : http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/29794/supplements/10217 There is a birth record for a John Henry Fitzsimons, Quarter 4 1894, Cookstown and for a James Fitzsimons in Quarter 3, 1893, Cookstown. 1911 census for the family http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tyrone/Aughnacloy_Urban/Moore_Street/854200/ and for John Henry http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Court_Ward/Agnes_Street/147475/ The medal card for John H Fitzsimons, 14/14603 has a note re the records office requesting permission to dispose of the medals. Strange if there was a strong family tie to James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macfarro Posted 4 January , 2011 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2011 @ KevinW4 - CWGC shows John FitzsimMons - no. 14610 as died 22/3/16 and buried in Belfast City cemetery, and his MIC shows 10/14610 rather than 14/14610...I suspect that for the Ulster Division (although I am not certain) the prefix denotes the battallion, therefore I don't believe he is the brother. This would also explain the different 'in theatre date' if he went with the 10th rather than the 14th. As suggested above I will contact the Somme museum in Newtonards to see if they have any info on the family @ johhny_doyle - thanks for the links I hadn't actually looked at the MIC for John H as I though I'd managed to tie him down regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markinbelfast Posted 27 October , 2011 Share Posted 27 October , 2011 There is a birth record for a John Henry Fitzsimons, Quarter 4 1894, Cookstown and for a James Fitzsimons in Quarter 3, 1893, Cookstown. city cemetery- Record details Name of deceased Mr John Fitzsimmons Last place of residence The War Hospital, Paddock Huddersfield Age 39 Years Sex Date of death 23 March 1916 Date of burial 26 March 1916 Cemetery City Cemetery - Glenalina Extension Grave section and number H 116 Burial type Earth Burial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 27 October , 2011 Share Posted 27 October , 2011 Here's the Fitzsimmons casualty from BCC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 27 October , 2011 Share Posted 27 October , 2011 Here's casualty J H Fitzsimons, Connaught Cemetery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macfarro Posted 28 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 October , 2011 Thanks for the pictures (both) Mark, if I understand you correctly, you are confirming/supporting the idea that the John Fitzsimons buried in Belfast is not the brother I was looking for as he was born around 1877 (39 yrs old in 1916) and is therefore not the same John in the census and birth records as he was born in the 1894 best regards Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 28 October , 2011 Share Posted 28 October , 2011 Rob - I have not read all the posts but there is a James and a John H Fitzsimons/Fitzsimmons listed in the Roll of Honour for Great Victoria Street Presbyterian Church ... there is also an "S E Ernest Fitzsimons" at the same address. I have pictures of the GVS War Memorial and the illustrated Roll of Honour ... if you are interested, drop me a message with your email address. Wesley - I would be interested in any material that you have on these men as they fall into my Belfast Presbyterians in the Great War research. Ulsterlad - I would be interested in having a copy of the JH Fitzsimons gravestone picture. Will have a longer look at the thread when I get home. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulsterlad2 Posted 28 October , 2011 Share Posted 28 October , 2011 Thanks for the pictures (both)Rob No worries Rob. Glad to pitch in. @Nigel. Not a problem. Email(s) sent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markinbelfast Posted 28 October , 2011 Share Posted 28 October , 2011 the headline suggests that the brother wasn't 100% sure if his brother was killed...otherwise they wouldn't have been looking for info... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hen190782 Posted 28 October , 2011 Share Posted 28 October , 2011 Mark You have cropped out James! I have just sent my version of it (albeit photo from microfilm) to macfarro along with the GVS WM/RoH images. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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