Transfer Between Regiments

[thegreypanther]

At the moment I am compiling the full Roll of Honour for the Yorkshire Regiment. Before too long I hope to publish this on the web.

Just under 8,000 of those who died were serving in the regiment at the time of their death. A number of these men had transferred into the Yorkshire regiment from other units.

A further 500-plus men had originally served in the Yorkshire Regiment, but at the time of their death were serving with other units.

I am including this latter group of men in the full Roll of Honour.

What I am curious about are the reasons for men being moved between regiments.

I can understand the movement into, say, the Machine Gun Corps or the Labour Corps.

Is there anything available to help me more fully appreciate why men would be moved between infantry regiments, or from an artillery regiment into an infantry regiment?

From what I can see, many of these transfers didn't happen after recovering from wounds.

[ss002d6252]

I would guess most of them were to reinforce units that had either been severely mauled in battle or to boost their complement before a major battle.

[thegreypanther]

I would guess most of them were to reinforce units that had either been severely mauled in battle or to boost their complement before a major battle.

But what puzzles me is why they transferred men from battalions that were front line units and were about to go into the trenches themselves.

For instance, one of the Yorkshire Regiment soldiers who is listed amongst those who were Shot at Dawn was James Crampton of the 6th Battalion.

James Crampton had survived Gallipoli, and when the 6th Battalion was moved to the Western Front in July 1916 he was thereupon transferred to the York & Lancs Regiment.

The 6th Battalion was active in the fighting at the time, so why transfer a man into another infantry regiment?

Sadly, James Crampton was then detailed for front line work with the Royal Engineers from which he absconded.

[Andrew Hesketh]

I can't explain that one. On the surface it does appear odd, though there must have been a good reason.

Another reason for transfer was that when a soldier was wounded to the UK, upon return to the front they were sometimes redirected for the reason suggested above.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Andrew.

My Gt Uncle joined the 1st Bn Royal fusiliers in Dec 1914 as a Special Reservist, was then transfered to the 24th Bn Royal Fusiliers 2nd Sportsmen,and was the transfered to the 4th Bn Royal Fusiliers and the reverted back to the 24th Bn Royal Fusiliers until his death in March 1918.We know he was wounded twice,but I am pretty sure he did not come back to England due to his wounds.We think he was sent to different Bn's that were short of men after taking a mauling at some point.Also he would have been regarded as a hardened and and experienced soldier especialy by 1917 when all the young conscripts were coming into the ranks.Hope you dont mind my comments.

Merry Christmas to you All.

Best Regards Andy.

[Piorun]

But what puzzles me is why they transferred men from battalions that were front line units and were about to go into the trenches themselves.

For instance, one of the Yorkshire Regiment soldiers who is listed amongst those who were Shot at Dawn was James Crampton of the 6th Battalion.

James Crampton had survived Gallipoli, and when the 6th Battalion was moved to the Western Front in July 1916 he was thereupon transferred to the York & Lancs Regiment.

The 6th Battalion was active in the fighting at the time, so why transfer a man into another infantry regiment?

Sadly, James Crampton was then detailed for front line work with the Royal Engineers from which he absconded.

I doubt that you will find a rule of thumb. These decisions were made at the time by the people who determined where men were needed and where they could best be used. Some transfers may have been granted on request. In Crampton's case, he may have been showing signs of unsteadiness. In another instance, if a man was due to return to his unit and that unit had been severely mauled, he may have been shipped elsewhere. It happened to my uncle who was posted to 15 Royal Scots after recovering from wounds sustained with 5 Scottish Rifles but, before he got there, the battalion was virtually wiped out. He went to 2 Royal Scots instead. Antony

[Andrew Hesketh]

Hope you dont mind my comments.

No of course not! We're always learning. Anyway, your comments make sense, I'd just never personally come across proof that it happened in theatre. Guess I have now, so thanks.

[Alan Tucker]

Some examples from the Warwicks on the Somme...

The losses sustained by the Regiment in death and injury led to a change in the character of each Battalion as new drafts arrived as reinforcements. It would be difficult to sustain the close ethos once based on geography and social class. The three Birmingham Pals battalions were seriously affected. The same also applies to the three Birmingham area based Territorial units and probably to the 1/7th as well. War diaries have many comments on the new arrivals, many very negative. The 143 Brigade war diary on August 1 noted that the Derby scheme replacements had received an “imperfect and superficial training” and were of “poor physique” and therefore “quite unfit to serve with an infantry battalion in the field”. When 11th Battalion were shelled in Becourt Wood on the same date Collison pointed out that more than half the men had never been under fire before. In the 1/5th battalion great efforts had to be made in September to reduce the number of recruits of poor physique who were beginning to come in larger numbers under the Military Service Act. 144 such men were inspected on September 6. Atkinson in his 7th Division history, which included the 2nd Warwicks, attributed the “failure to retain the ground gained had been largely due to the lack of training of the recent drafts who formed so high a proportion of battalions and to the inexperience of most of its officers and NCOs”. The 14th battalion war diarist noted on September 15…“The spirit of the battalion is as good as ever but considerable difficulty is being found in getting suitable officers to train and lead them. Only young and very inexperienced youngsters are now being posted”. When an officer and 60 men arrived at the same battalion on July 30 the war diary recorded a mixed judgement…..

“These men are the first recruits to arrive of the ‘Derby groups’. Physically very fine and with good intellect. Average service about 18 weeks. Have therefore had but little training in musketry, bombing etc”.

Looking back one year from October 1916 Fairclough had seen that the battalion which arrived on the Somme, the 14th, had changed greatly with “very few of the men who came out in the previous November left”. Only five officers remained a year later. When Captain Bill returned to the 15th Battalion in early October, after recovery from a wound, he did think that it was quite the same unit as there had been so many changes; ‘very few of the old officers were left’ and ‘so many of the originals (NCOs and men) had gone’ .Not all replacements were regarded as unsuitable. Some drafts included wounded returnees to the battalion or postings from another battalion of the Regiment. There were also drafts from other regiments. Carrington believed that the August 7 draft into the 1/5th battalion of ninety-nine other ranks from the disbanded 1/1 Huntingdonshire Cyclists Battalion was ‘one of the best drafts we ever received’. On August 3 61 other ranks arrived at 14th Battalion “mostly men of 2-3 months training with a few old soldiers of 1st and 2nd Battalion”. On August 6 195 men of the West Hunts Cyclists Territorials who were ‘well set up and physically sound’ joined…….“Have done practically no infantry training throughout their service of 19 months. Have fired only 30-40 rounds on a range and thrown but one live bomb. Have been employed throughout their service on night patrol work along the East coast” There were also 35 men from the 1st and 2nd/Worcs who were a “fine body of men all with war service but they are not happy at being transferred from their own Battalions”. The 60 men on August 13 included eleven returnees to the battalion after recovering from wounds but also others who had been wounded on the Somme from five other Royal Warwickshire battalions.

In late September the 10th Battalion received a large draft of 300 men from the 2/7 and 2/8 Notts and Derby Regiment. The War Diary commented…“The draft appears to be a fine one. No man with less than six months: and a great number with two years service. Almost all had been through Irish Rebellion in Dublin; altho none had been in France before”.

[purley]

Perhaps the most common reason was that the man was injured, returned to a Training Reserve Regiment and was posted to another regiment. In fact after 1916 they went out of their way to ensure that a man did not re-join his original unit. Other reasons were the need to reinforce a unit and move a large number of men at a time. There was also the reason that the original regiment just simply got rid of troublemakers. From the infomation I have on over 150,000 men the average number of regiments per man is around 2.1 so you should expect men to have been transferred, not be surprised by it.

regards

John

[thegreypanther]

Many thanks, purley.

What you have said very much fits in with what I have been seeing in my research.

The Yorkshire Regiment's official history states that 7,500 men of the regiment's 24 Battalions lost their lives in the war, - out of the 65,000 men who served.

I now feel more strongly that the actual figure of those who lost their lives serving with the regiment was of the order of 8,500, possibly more. This would take into account those men who were transferred into other regiments, as well as those transferred into the Yorkshires.

The regiment's Roll of Honour that is kept in Richmond's parish church only records the 7,500 men who were weraing the regiment's cap badge when they lost their life.

Even then, many were left ff this Roll of Honour, - especially men who died at home.

Hopefully, the full Roll of Honour that I am working on will help those researching the regiment's history, or their own family history, subsequently.

[mhifle]

Hi,

I have a relative who was killed serving with the Yorkshire Regiment.

No.33674 Private William Benner Raymond, ‘C’ Company, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Killed 1 Oct 1917 aged 19

Born 2 July 1898 in Tralee.

Parents

Father: George Raymond (Born 1860), Newspaper Editor (The Kerry Post)

Mother: Mary Jane Raymond (Born 1867)

Residence: Ballymullen, Tralee, Co. Kerry

Formerly No.226247 Private William Raymond, Army Service Corps

He was compulsorily transferred from Army Service Corps to the 6th Training Reserve Battalion at Rugeley Camp

He was then transferred to the 9th Training Reserve Battalion 9th Training Reserve Battalion.

Posted to the BEF

Transferred as No.33939 Private William Raymond, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Killed 1 Oct 1917

While researching his service I found some other men who followed a similar route from the Army Service Corps to the 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

--------------

No. 33675 Private Albert Reginald Stanley, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Formerly No.M/206375 Private Albert Reginald Stanley Army Service Corps, joined at Grove Park 12 Dec 1916

Compulsorily transferred as No.TR/5/23287 Private Albert Reginald Stanley, 6th Training Reserve Battalion 23 Mar 1917

Transferred as No.33944 Private Albert Reginald Stanley, 9th Training Reserve Battalion 18 April 1917

Posted to BEF, Etaples 17 June 1917

Posted as No. 33675 Private Albert Reginald Stanley, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment 5 July 1917

Class Z 8 March 1919

-------

No.33677 Private Stanley William Savage, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Formerly No.219732 Private Stanley William Savage, Army Service Corps, joined at Grove Park 1 Nov 1916

Compulsorily transferred as No. TR/5/23285 Private Stanley William Savage, 6th Training Reserve Battalion 27 Mar 1917

Transferred as No. 36574 Private Stanley William Savage, 9th Training Reserve Battalion 18 April 1917

Posted to BEF, Etaples 17 June 1917

Transferred as No.33677 Private Stanley William Savage, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment 5 July 1917

Dispersal Unit, Crystal Palace 28 Sep 1919

-------

No. 33673 Private Benjamin Roberts, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Formerly No. 267705 Private Benjamin Roberts, Army Service Corps , joined at Grove Park 12 Nov 1916

Compulsorily transferred as No. TR/5/23276 Private Benjamin Roberts, 6th Training Reserve Battalion 27 Mar 1917

Transferred as No.35737 Private Benjamin Roberts, 9th Training Reserve Battalion 18 April 1917

Posted to BEF, Etaples 17 June 1917

Transferred as No. 33673 Private Benjamin Roberts, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment 5 July 1917

Class Z 21 Feb 1919

-----------

No. 33670 Sergeant Albert Peacock, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Formerly No. DM2/228155 Private Albert Peacock, Army Service Corps, joined at Grove Park 4 Oct 1917

Compulsorily transferred as No. TR/5/23276 Private Albert Peacock, 6th Training Reserve Battalion 27 Mar 1917

Transferred as No. 33933 Private Albert Peacock, 9th Training Reserve Battalion

Posted to BEF, Etaples 18 June 1917

Transferred as No. 33670 Sergeant Albert Peacock, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment 5 July 1917

Promoted Sergeant 3 May 1918

------------

No.33678 Private Arthur Stringer, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment & 10th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

Formerly No, 219685 Private Arthur Stringer, Army Service Corps

TR/5/23286 Private Arthur Stringer, 6th Training Reserve Battalion

No. 378114 Private Arthur Stringer, 9th Training Reserve Battalion

No.33678 Private Arthur Stringer, 9th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

No.33678 Private Arthur Stringer, 10th Battalion Yorkshire Regiment

POW

Regards Mark

[centurion]

The Grey Panther's post on Crampton and some of Marks examples may give a clue to at least one reason (I suspect there was more than one). If a man had been in a unit that had taken a bit of a mauling or had seen hard service it's possible he might be transfered to one that was in a quieter sector, especially if he showed signs of unsteadiness or 'battle fatigue'. Given that Crampton deserted this could well have been the case. When the man had been in a quieter sector (or even in the UK) for a period and his nerves etc had settled he might then be transferred again to a unit needing men because it was going into battle (which seems to have happened in Marks examples).

[thegreypanther]

The Grey Panther's post on Crampton and some of Marks examples may give a clue to at least one reason (I suspect there was more than one). If a man had been in a unit that had taken a bit of a mauling or had seen hard service it's possible he might be transfered to one that was in a quieter sector, especially if he showed signs of unsteadiness or 'battle fatigue'. Given that Crampton deserted this could well have been the case. When the man had been in a quieter sector (or even in the UK) for a period and his nerves etc had settled he might then be transferred again to a unit needing men because it was going into battle (which seems to have happened in Marks examples).

Crampton was originally in the 6th Battalion and was in the fighting in Gallipoli. In the initial landings on 6 / 7 August 1915, 22 of the 23 officers were killed, wounded or missing.Of the other ranks, about 250 of the original 750 were killed wounded or missing.

After an attack on Scimitar Hill on 21 August, the remnants of the Battalion mustered just 285 men.

The Battalion was reinforced but didn;t leave Gallipoli until 20 December 1915, by which time, of course, there had been further losses.

The Battalion then served in Egypt until May 1916.

Clearly, anyone serving with the Battalion at the time would have experienced a most terrible time. The above scenario very much supports the possibility that Crampton was transferred after showing signs of combat stress. It is not too great a stretch of the imagination to think of a man absenting himself for no better reason than to avoid returning to the hell that he had previously experienced, - and then end up as one of the "Shot at Dawn".

[Don]

Some examples from the Warwicks on the Somme...

The losses sustained by the Regiment in death and injury led to a change in the character of each Battalion as new drafts arrived as reinforcements. It would be difficult to sustain the close ethos once based on geography and social class. The three Birmingham Pals battalions were seriously affected. The same also applies to the three Birmingham area based Territorial units and probably to the 1/7th as well. War diaries have many comments on the new arrivals, many very negative. The 143 Brigade war diary on August 1 noted that the Derby scheme replacements had received an "imperfect and superficial training" and were of "poor physique" and therefore "quite unfit to serve with an infantry battalion in the field". When 11th Battalion were shelled in Becourt Wood on the same date Collison pointed out that more than half the men had never been under fire before. In the 1/5th battalion great efforts had to be made in September to reduce the number of recruits of poor physique who were beginning to come in larger numbers under the Military Service Act. 144 such men were inspected on September 6. Atkinson in his 7th Division history, which included the 2nd Warwicks, attributed the "failure to retain the ground gained had been largely due to the lack of training of the recent drafts who formed so high a proportion of battalions and to the inexperience of most of its officers and NCOs". The 14th battalion war diarist noted on September 15…"The spirit of the battalion is as good as ever but considerable difficulty is being found in getting suitable officers to train and lead them. Only young and very inexperienced youngsters are now being posted". When an officer and 60 men arrived at the same battalion on July 30 the war diary recorded a mixed judgement…..

"These men are the first recruits to arrive of the 'Derby groups'. Physically very fine and with good intellect. Average service about 18 weeks. Have therefore had but little training in musketry, bombing etc".

Looking back one year from October 1916 Fairclough had seen that the battalion which arrived on the Somme, the 14th, had changed greatly with "very few of the men who came out in the previous November left". Only five officers remained a year later. When Captain Bill returned to the 15th Battalion in early October, after recovery from a wound, he did think that it was quite the same unit as there had been so many changes; 'very few of the old officers were left' and 'so many of the originals (NCOs and men) had gone' .Not all replacements were regarded as unsuitable. Some drafts included wounded returnees to the battalion or postings from another battalion of the Regiment. There were also drafts from other regiments. Carrington believed that the August 7 draft into the 1/5th battalion of ninety-nine other ranks from the disbanded 1/1 Huntingdonshire Cyclists Battalion was 'one of the best drafts we ever received'. On August 3 61 other ranks arrived at 14th Battalion "mostly men of 2-3 months training with a few old soldiers of 1st and 2nd Battalion". On August 6 195 men of the West Hunts Cyclists Territorials who were 'well set up and physically sound' joined……."Have done practically no infantry training throughout their service of 19 months. Have fired only 30-40 rounds on a range and thrown but one live bomb. Have been employed throughout their service on night patrol work along the East coast" There were also 35 men from the 1st and 2nd/Worcs who were a "fine body of men all with war service but they are not happy at being transferred from their own Battalions". The 60 men on August 13 included eleven returnees to the battalion after recovering from wounds but also others who had been wounded on the Somme from five other Royal Warwickshire battalions.

In late September the 10th Battalion received a large draft of 300 men from the 2/7 and 2/8 Notts and Derby Regiment. The War Diary commented…"The draft appears to be a fine one. No man with less than six months: and a great number with two years service. Almost all had been through Irish Rebellion in Dublin; altho none had been in France before".

very interesting Emjoyed reading it