corisande Posted 8 December , 2010 Share Posted 8 December , 2010 3 "F coy" ADRIC men were tried and acquitted of the murders on 3 Feb 1921 at Drumcondra. I do not want the thread to get involved in suppositions, what I am trying to find out is who the men tried actually were 1. W L King is quite clear - we have had a thread on him here and he was commander of F Coy ADRIC 2. T/Cadet Herbert Hinchcliffe, "F Coy" ADRIC 3. T/Cadet Frederick James Welsh or Walsh, "F Coy" ADRIC I have on this page the extracts from the Times, But this one extract gives you the gist of it. You can read the rest of the trial on the link. The trial rattled on - the Crown withdrew the charge against Welsh/Walsh for unspecified reasons, and the other two were found "not guilty" as some F Coy men were prepared to swear on oath that the men on trial were elsewhere on a raid. I have been unable to pin down with MIC or LG entries who Hinchcliffe and Welsh/Walsh actually were Can anyone help me push this forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 8 December , 2010 Share Posted 8 December , 2010 Hi, There is a 2nd Lieutenant Herbert Hinchcliffe, RNAS. This is the only Herbert Hinchcliffe as an Officer I can find so far. Gazette 11.10.18 date of effect 24.9.18 To unemployed list 9.10.19 Born 15 Jan 1899 Bank Clerk Nat & Prov Bank, York 25 Sept 1916 to 1 June 1917 Served as a Private in the 85th Training Battalion Reserve Records Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 8 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2010 Thanks Mark I think you are probably right there, but we need a cross check of some sort. I'll have a root round It is surprising how many ADRIC were RAF, around 10% of total recruits were. And seems to have been higher in F Coy I have found now the RIC (as opposed to ADRIC) record that says he was born 1899 in York. The Birth record is Hants, father Sgt major in W Yorks Regt. 1901 census in Aldershot, and 1911 in York. So he looks like it so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 9 December , 2010 Share Posted 9 December , 2010 Hi, This looks like his father's Medal Card. Medal Card and his service record SR1 SR2 SR3 SR4 Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 9 December , 2010 Share Posted 9 December , 2010 From Hansard 18 April 1921 → Commons Sitting → IRELAND. LIEUT.-COMMANDER FRY. HC Deb 18 April 1921 vol 140 cc1523-4 1523 Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS (by Private Notice) asked the Attorney-General for Ireland whether the prosecution of Captain King and Cadets Hinchcliffe and Welsh, of the Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, for the murder of James Murphy was founded mainly on the evidence of Lieut.-Commander Fry; what position Lieut.-Commander Fry holds in the Irish Administration; whether Lieut.-Commander Fry's evidence was so unreliable as to have the appearance of deliberate perjury; and whether he will be suspended with a view to his prosecution? § Mr. HENRY Lieut.-Commander Fry, who is employed in the office of the Chief of Police, was a witness for the prosecution in this case. I do not think it desirable to express any opinion as to the 1524 extent to which the case for the prosecution depended on his evidence or as to the reliability of his evidence. These were matters for the Court to decide. The answer to the last part of the question is in the negative. § Lord H. CAVENDISH-BENTINCK Is it usual for a Member of this House to use the privileges of the House to accuse another man of perjury? § Earl WINTERTON May I ask my hon. and learned Friend whether, between now and Wednesday—when I propose to put down a question on the subject—he will inquire into the reasons why Lieut.-Commander Fry was ever appointed to this office, whether the appointment was made on the recommendation of a Member of this House; also if he will carefully read the amazing evidence given by Lieut.-Commander Fry and the manner in which it was completely rebutted by military and police witnesses? Mr. O'CONNOR May I ask if the name of this gentleman—which has just been mentioned and which I hear for the first time—was published by the authorities, and whether the authorities consider it desirable to expose a gentleman who, like General Crozier, tried to bring criminals to justice, to such attacks as have been made upon him? Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS May I ask whether this case was not heard in open court, and whether it is not public knowledge in Dublin as to whose evidence brought the whole case about? § Mr. HENRY The case was heard in open court. The Crown did not publish the names of the witnesses. Mr. O'CONNOR Why did they not publish the names? 21 April 1921 → Written Answers (Commons) → IRELAND. LIEUT. -COMMANDER FRY. HC Deb 21 April 1921 vol 140 cc2084-5W 2085W Lieut.-Colonel GUINNESS asked the Chief Secretary whether the court which tried Captain King and Cadets Hinchcliffe and Walsh, of the Auxiliary Division, Royal Irish Constabulary, for the murder of James Murphy considered that the witnesses for the prosecution had so completely failed to establish any case that they acquitted the accused without even hearing the final addresses of counsel; and whether Lieut.-Commander Fry, on whose information the prosecution was based, is still employed in the office of the chief of police? § Mr. HENRY I am unable to add anything to the reply which I gave to a similar question by the hon. and gallant Member on this subject on the 18tb instant. Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 9 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2010 Mark Thanks for H's father's record, and particularly for that piece from Hansard. It looks as if Lieut.-Commander Fry is the Mr F in the court case. Quite incredible that it is getting reported openly in Hansard. Fry would certainly have had to be pulled out of Dublin Also it points up the interchangeability of Welsh and Walsh for the other man involved. And shows that whistl blowers have always had problems with the authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 9 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 9 December , 2010 Ok the cross check is there - I have added his RAF record to his page and you can see that his 1911 census address of the Barracks in York is the same as on his service record So this is our man. I do have the problem of contacting descendants, given the background. So will stick to the gathering of information for the time being Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 11 December , 2010 Share Posted 11 December , 2010 Hi, There is also a F J Welsh in the RAF. Record His record just states: F J Welsh 181539 (if this is a service number Block 175001 to 185000, Date May-Oct 1918 RAF, Manner of joining the service - Cadets) RAF Records O/C, 7-1-19 Transferred to Class G RAF Reserve Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2010 That could well be him. I tend to have overlooked RAF officers, and there seem, for some reason, to be a disproportionately high number in F Coy ADRIC I was reading a research paper which put RAF officers overall in ADRIC at about 10%, but of the 25 men 1 have looked at in detail on F Coy, RAF percentage is much twice that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 11 December , 2010 Share Posted 11 December , 2010 Hi, Prehaps the ADRIC and the RAF/RFC would both appeal to men who enjoyed a certain type of 'risk taking'. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2010 "Risk taking" Could be. I am reading an a book entitled "An air fighters scrap book" by an RAF officer called Jones. Who after the war volunteered to serve in Russia. He cites the buzz of excitement that he got, knowing that the Bolsheviks would disembowel him if he were captured. Takes all sorts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 11 December , 2010 Share Posted 11 December , 2010 This all there is on the Service Record Mark Service Record Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 11 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2010 Not giving much away are they One can draw a number of conclusions 1. A late joiner and no service record to talk about (or a late commission of a man who served far a period before) 2. An undercover man, whose record has been washed. I am always suspicious if there is no previous service to be found. Particularly as the case against Welsh was withdrawn for no (reported) reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 11 December , 2010 Share Posted 11 December , 2010 RAF Reserve Class Class: G Conceived: 1918 Implemented: 1918 Eligibility/Notes: Airman released from service after WW1, liable for recall whilst on the reserve. Class disbanded and all airman in the class discharged 30 April 1920 Training Requirement: Nil Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 15 December , 2010 Share Posted 15 December , 2010 Hi, This might be Lieut.-Commander Fry The Times, Friday, Feb 03, 1922 Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corisande Posted 15 December , 2010 Author Share Posted 15 December , 2010 Thanks Mark That looks promising. I'll see what I can get with that initial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhifle Posted 15 December , 2010 Share Posted 15 December , 2010 Hi, His name was Robert Regards Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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