British rifle-fire mistaken for machine-guns

[Pete1052]

On one hand I believe that by and large the British regulars in the early fighting gave a good account of themselves, but on the other I think this "Noble Sacrifice of the Old Army" tale became a bit more embellished with each retelling. For some it's become one of the cherished myths of British military history. I'm not a subject matter expert on the tactical history of it all, just someone who sees at least two schools of thought that are in conflict with each other here.

[dycer]

Pete,

Being mindful of your comments relating to the proposed new Dambusters Film.

Why does British folklore imply that the only safe place to be behind your Countrymen, when they are about to fire live ammunition,is behind them?

George

[bob lembke]

Pete,

Being mindful of your comments relating to the proposed new Dambusters Film.

Why does British folklore imply that the only safe place to be behind your Countrymen, when they are about to fire live ammunition,is behind them?

George

One is reminded of the (supposed) comment of a Britsh officer, upon being told (in mid-19th Century, I assume), that marksmanship was going to be taught in the British Army (up till then the men just fired over yonder at the group of "Frogs" or whatever perhaps a hundred yards off in a rather vague fashion), that if they taught the men how to actually shoot at a target smaller than the side of a barn, that in two weeks there would not be a single landlord left alive in Ireland.

Any truth to that? Anyone have a source?

Bob

[bob lembke]

Pete,

Being mindful of your comments relating to the proposed new Dambusters Film.

Why does British folklore imply that the only safe place to be behind your Countrymen, when they are about to fire live ammunition,is behind them?

George

One is reminded of the (supposed) comment of a Britsh officer, upon being told (in mid-19th Century, I assume), that marksmanship was going to be taught in the British Army (up till then the men just fired over yonder at the group of "Frogs" or whatever perhaps a hundred yards off in a rather vague fashion), that if they taught the men how to actually shoot at a target smaller than the side of a barn, that in two weeks there would not be a single landlord left alive in Ireland.

Any truth to that? Anyone have a source?

Bob

[edwin astill]

.... and the Irish priest in the pulpit: "It is drink that makes you beat your wives; it is drink that makes you lose your jobs; it is drink that makes you shoot your landlords, and it is drink that makes you miss them."

Meanwhile, back to Mons.

Edwin

[dycer]

Edwin,

As you say back to Mons.

A few questions for the Forum.

What was the average rate of aimed fire an average British rifleman expected to deliver,per minute,in 1914?

How many rounds of S.A.A. did an average British rifleman carry in 1914?.

How easy was it to resupply S.A.A. ammunition to the British front line infantrymen during the early exchanges,in 1914?

George

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think possibly some people took German reports too literally - an officer giving a throwaway comment ......

I think that this happens many times... same way the Brit paras claim the germans called them Red Devils and the German paras claimed the brits called them Green devils ... and the Marines claimed the Germans called them Devil Dogs... and the French 152nd Regiment thought they were called Blue devils....

Probably all based on throwaway comments...

Best

Chris

[squirrel]

On one hand I believe that by and large the British regulars in the early fighting gave a good account of themselves, but on the other I think this "Noble Sacrifice of the Old Army" tale became a bit more embellished with each retelling.....

Not entirely I would suggest - after First Ypres the Regular Army battalions were much reduced in numbers and it was not unusal for 200 to 300 men and in many instances even less to be fit for duty for units with an establishment of 1000+.

True, some of these were made up to something like establishment strength from replacements/reservists. But bringing other Regular battalions from overseas as well as the Indian Corps and sending out the Territorial battalions was the only way to substantially replace the losses and increase the forces in the field.

A look at the ORBAT for the Spring offensives in 1915 will show just how many TF units were involved in these battles as opposed to Regular battalions.

[Old Tom]

May I suggest that the origin of the MG story could lie with members of the German army. I accept that the following is a generality, but it should be remembered that very few, if any, of the German soldiers advancing toward Mons would have faced rapid rifle fire from units of battalion strength before. Certainly not the fire from soldiers armed with a rifle of the SMLE type. Clearly most of them would distinguish MG fire from rifle fire when encountered in small quantities but if the fire is directed at massed infantry, the survivors might well say they must have lots of MGs. After all, with great respect to the Belgian army I do not believe their units were capable of delivering the rate and weight of fire of the units of the BEF in 1914.

Old Tom

[dycer]

Tom,

I agree with all you have written.

But the fact remains that German advancing Forces were checked,at Mons,by British fire,whether a combination of rifle and machine gun fire I do not know.

However,as the Film "Zulu Dawn" made clear,weak replacement or non replacement, of SAA due to orders, cost loss loss of an engagement

The Film "Zulu"made clear that delivering ammunition,to the fighting soldiers,was important,and done with due loss.

Surely the original BEF had been trained to police an Empire and were,therefore,not expected to fight a European War,but did so and shocked,the Germans,with their accuracy of fire and conserving of ammunition.

George

[Gunner Bailey]

It's also entirely possible that where the Germans attacked in massed ranks a single bullet could down two if not three people. Has this ever been discussed before??

John

[Moonraker]

I think that this happens many times... same way the Brit paras claim the germans called them Red Devils and the German paras claimed the brits called them Green devils ... and the Marines claimed the Germans called them Devil Dogs... and the French 152nd Regiment thought they were called Blue devils....

Probably all based on throwaway comments...

Best

Chris

Good point. I wonder how many "facts" are based on comments made in jest, sarcastically, ironically and so on. (Think of the number of times some of us have taken the wrong way comments made in this Forum.) I've often wondered about the story that the RFC wanted Stonehenge demolished because it interfered with flights from the nearby airfield. I doubt very much that the RFC seriously considered the idea, but there may have been comments, light hearted or otherwise, from pilots or even the airfield CO to the effect that "it's a pity we can't demolish that pile of old stones".

Moonraker

[SiegeGunner]

It's also entirely possible that where the Germans attacked in massed ranks a single bullet could down two if not three people. Has this ever been discussed before??

This is about Mons, John, not Waterloo ...

[Gunner Bailey]

This is about Mons, John, not Waterloo ...

Yes but the descriptions of attacks by mass ranks of Germans could well have been from the 19th Century. I don't see the difference.

John

[SiegeGunner]

The Machine Guns of Mons thread examined such descriptions and could not find objective confirmation of them or casualty figures that would support the lurid claims of wholesale slaughter of massed ranks. There is more to the myth than just the stuff about rifle fire being mistaken for machine guns.

[Steven Broomfield]

my The German Army at Ypres 1914 (which is due out this coming week).

Jack

As no-one else seems to have commented, can I say "Good-oh", please?

[squirrel]

Already ordered through the Amazon link. Hope it turns up in time for the festive period.

[Jack Sheldon]

You have both made a starving author huddled over his candle for warmth in his leaky garret very happy.

Jack

[George Armstrong Custer]

That image would bring a tear to a glass eye, Jack - I've ordered fork handles for your Xmas.

Munificent George

[Steven Broomfield]

leaky garret .

Jack

Never liked the woman, personally.

[Jack Sheldon]

Tee! Hee! I am need of a laugh, given that I am wrestling to coax a coherent narrative out of the appalling Feb 15 battles in Champagne right now.

Jack

[Gunner Bailey]

The Machine Guns of Mons thread examined such descriptions and could not find objective confirmation of them or casualty figures that would support the lurid claims of wholesale slaughter of massed ranks. There is more to the myth than just the stuff about rifle fire being mistaken for machine guns.

One quote (Long Long Trail)about Mons.

'The British infantry shot down the feldgrau in masses as they advanced towards the canal in dense lines'.

If you are saying Chris is just repeating a myth maybe you should take it up with him?

John

[MikB]

It's also entirely possible that where the Germans attacked in massed ranks a single bullet could down two if not three people. Has this ever been discussed before??

John

At 200 or 300 yards there might have been a few instances of that, though even then not many unless they were packed so tight they could hardly move. At 600 yards or more it becomes very improbable, and certainly wouldn't have occurred often enough to make a difference to the outcome.

Regards,

MikB

[Gunner Bailey]

At 200 or 300 yards there might have been a few instances of that, though even then not many unless they were packed so tight they could hardly move. At 600 yards or more it becomes very improbable, and certainly wouldn't have occurred often enough to make a difference to the outcome.

Regards,

MikB

At 200-300 yards I would have thought there were lots of examples. At 600 yards bullet velocity would have dropped by about 300 fps, but I still would not want be behind someone who had been hit.

John

[Pete1052]

One quote (Long Long Trail) about Mons.

'The British infantry shot down the feldgrau in masses as they advanced towards the canal in dense lines.'

Statements to that effect have been repeated so many times in books that rely heavily on secondary sources that they have come to be regarded as the Gospel Truth. Over time the prowess of the 'Old Contemptibles' at Mons has been raised to the level of the Spartans at Thermopylae. The Regulars fought well, but not as brilliantly as the cherished legend would have it.