Italian Trench Mortar

[18th Battalion]

I've seen some posts which mentioned trench mortars powered by compressed air, and I've come across this on the Photos of The Great War website: http://www.gwpda.org/photos/coppermine/displayimage.php?pid=297&fullsize=1 titled as "Italian Trench Mortar".

As there does not appear to be a high pressure container for compressed air or gas, just something that looks like it would hold liquid; any ideas how this would be powered, or is the description wrong and it's not a mortar at all?

Paul

[centurion]

I've seen it captioned as a pneumatic mortar in several places. However compressed air mortars did not necessarily have compressed air cylinders but the air was compressed in the mortar using a pump - see photo of a French mortar.

[CharlieBris]

The driving part of the mortar is the compressed air tank - the "swollen" part of the mortar. This could be brought to pressure by hand pumps or compressors.

I'm not sure what the bucket arrangement is for. The Austro-Hungarian army deployed a number of types of pneumatic mortars as well as the Italians and French.

They had the advantage there was no flash or smoke to reveal the mortars firing position, the downsides were the limited range and slow firing rate.

Here's a link to some images of an A-H 12cm pneumatic mortar - http://www.landships...werfer_m16.html

Regards,

Charlie

ps. Thinking about the image of the Italian mortar.. I wonder if the guy is purging the air receiver. The air receivers were pressurised to about 500+ psi so drying

the water out of the receiver must have been required regular maintenance - steel pressure containers rust very quickly if they are wet . The bucket would possibly

be simple way of determining whether the outlet air was water free.

[Tom W.]

Is this an Austrian pneumatic mortar?

[centurion]

The KuK had a number of compressed air mortars

The 10.5 cm Luftminenwerfer M 15 (Pneumatic Trench Mortar) Ten trench mortar platoons, each with two weapons, were formed and deployed in February 1916, mainly to the Russian theatre. These did use compressed air cylinders, each one good for fifteen round. An improved model was produced by Ehrhardt & Sehmer but rejected because of ammunition problems

The 10.5 cm Luftminenwerfer M 15 . a German pneumatic mortar later replaced by the superior --

The 12 cm Luftminenwerfer M 16 (Pneumatic trench mortar) produced by the Austria Metal Works in Brno (and later by Brand & L'Huillier). An interesting if basic design. Breechloading the round was held in the barrel by grippers whilst pressure built up and then out it popped, the KuK had a scatalogical nick name for it. There was a barrel extension to increase range so that the one in the previous post might be one of these (except that the bore looks too small). Possibly it was the ealier 8cm version that had proved a failure.

The 15 cm Luftminenwerfer M 15 M. E. (Pneumatic Trench Mortar) using a 12 round compressed air cylinder developed by the German firm Maschinenfabrik Esslingen in response to a German requirement and used by both KuK and German pioneers but soon replaced by the 12 cm Luftminenwerfer M 16 (see above) in both armies

The 20 cm Luftminenwerfer M 16 (Pneumatic trench mortar), a scaled up version of the 12 cm Luftminenwerfer M 16. Too heavy to be useful it was replaced by the conventional 26 cm Minenwerfer M 17

[18th Battalion]

What kind of PSI was needed to operate these mortars; if using stirrup pumps like the photo in #2, it must have been very hard work, and had a slow rate of fire?

Could the bucket arrangement in the linked photo be some strange kind of hand pump?

BTW. In TomW's photo, is that a Vickers MG; certainly isn't a Schwarzlose M.07.

[centurion]

BTW. In TomW's photo, is that a Vickers MG; certainly isn't a Schwarzlose M.07.

In the early years of the war the KuK still had some Maxims

[Tom W.]

What kind of PSI was needed to operate these mortars; if using stirrup pumps like the photo in #2, it must have been very hard work, and had a slow rate of fire?

Could the bucket arrangement in the linked photo be some strange kind of hand pump?

BTW. In TomW's photo, is that a Vickers MG; certainly isn't a Schwarzlose M.07.

I believe its a Vickers captured from the Italians. The photo shows all the weapons of an assault platoon of the Edelweiss Division. There's that gun, a Danish Madsen, a Villar Perosa, four different trench mortars, a large and small flamethrower, a grenade launcher, and the weird tubular device I posted above.

[Marco]

As Centurion mentions they came in heavy calibre as well: 200 mm

http://www.xs4all.nl/~aur/layout/frames.htm?Hardware/Hardware8.htm

Regards,

Marco

[centurion]

I believe its a Vickers captured from the Italians. The photo shows all the weapons of an assault platoon of the Edelweiss Division. There's that gun, a Danish Madsen, a Villar Perosa, four different trench mortars, a large and small flamethrower, a grenade launcher, and the weird tubular device I posted above.

AFAIK all the Vickers Mgs exported to Italy in WW1 were used as aircraft weapons. The Fiat Revelli was the main Italian ground mg but some pre war Maxims were also used. So it it is a captured Vickers it would be interesting to know how and when it was captured. The Madsen was issued to some KuK mountain troops. The photo as posted is not clear enough to show the VP

A Vickers (or for that matter a tripod mounted Maxim) seems a strange weapon for an assault platoon but then again so do most trench mortars

[18th Battalion]

A Vickers (or for that matter a tripod mounted Maxim) seems a strange weapon for an assault platoon but then again so do most trench mortars

I think the Edelweiss Assult Platoon are photographed with their prizes captured from the Italian's rather than it being their own equipment?

Perhaps Tom can tell us if there is anymore info relating to the photo?

[centurion]

I think the Edelweiss Assult Platoon are photographed with their prizes captured from the Italian's rather than it being their own equipment?

Given that Madsens were issued to KuK mountain troops but not used by the Italian Army that doesn't work.

[Tom W.]

I think the Edelweiss Assult Platoon are photographed with their prizes captured from the Italian's rather than it being their own equipment?

Perhaps Tom can tell us if there is anymore info relating to the photo?

The caption on the back of the card is written in Czech and says "Our assault troops with their mortars and machine guns. They are the first to go against the enemy."

Here are two closeups. The first shows shows the pneumatic mortar and the Villar Perosa in the background, and the second shows the heavy machine gun and the Danish Madsen.

[centurion]

The tripod of the heavy mg looks more akin to that supplied with the Maxim MG09(the export model of the MG08) than that of the Vickers (the rear leg is longer). The light mg might be the Bergmann LMG15 (improved infantry version) but its difficult to tell from the photo. The barrel doesn't look quite right for the Madsen. I've found a number of photos of KuK platoons posing with a heavy mg, a mortar and a Bergmann LMG. Seems to be a fairly common arrangement.

[18th Battalion]

Were there any other Maxim type Heavy Machine Guns with the fluted water jacket other than the Vickers in WW1?

[centurion]

Were there any other Maxim type Heavy Machine Guns with the fluted water jacket other than the Vickers in WW1?

Yes, Some Russian Maxims for a start. I don't have my references to hand so I'll have a look later 2nite BTW not all Vickers had fluted jackets

[calibre792x57.y]

I'm no expert but squinting through my reumy old eyes at the rather blurry photo of the Vickers I would say that there appears to be a a commercial pattern of rear sight atop the receiver hence it may not be a captured weapon at all. SW

[centurion]

Yes, Some Russian Maxims for a start. I don't have my references to hand so I'll have a look later 2nite BTW not all Vickers had fluted jackets

For example http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/I/img/MG-1-121-12.jpg

[Andrew Upton]

AFAIK all the Vickers Mgs exported to Italy in WW1 were used as aircraft weapons.

Italy bought substantial numbers of standard Vickers guns pre-WW1, and received large numbers of the same from the British during the war:

"Thus when the Vickers became available, Italy was quick off the mark and second only to Great Britain in placing substantial orders. The first Class "C" gun (SN 9655) was despatched in Fenbruary, 1910 and a second one (SN 9982) followed in 1911, soon after which two orders totalling the substantial quantity of 890 guns (SN's 10009-10498 and 10590-10989) were despatched from May, 1912 through July, 1914.

...

Italy entered World War I on the Allied side on may 23, 1915. She received 902 Vickers guns in 1917 and 1,950 more in 1918, supplied from British Army stocks. Some of these were used by Italian units operating in Palestine as by 1917, after two years of war, very few of her original 890 commericla Vickers guns were left."

Goldsmiths "Grand Old Lady of No-Mans-Land, 1994, pages 389-91. This is accompanied by two pictures, one showing men of the Bersaglieri Company of the Italian detachment in Palestine in October 1917 receiving instruction by an Italian soldier on a standard Vickers guns and tripod, and the other being the cover of the April 1916 issue of the illustrated Italian periodical La Lettura, with an illustration depicting Italian Alpine troops in action with a Vickers gun, indicating it was still a front-line MG at that time.

[franzmaximilian]

Can anyone show pictures of A-H troops with Madsen MGs (or give links to) ? I am much interested in the subject since when I found a half emptied magazine in the ice.

This MG was used by the KuK army in at least 3 different calibres on the Italian front (possibly 4). It has been found on the battlefields filled with ammunition in Mauser 8mm, Nagant (Russian captured) and Steyr 8mm. A fourth type of magazine has been reported to have been found on battlefields, which could accomodate only ammunition of smaller caliber, possibly 6,5 mm, but it was empty... Mine is for Mauser ammunition.

Logistics must have been a nightmare in the KuK Army!!!

Ah, the light MG in the picture here doesn't look like a Madsen.

Thanks and regards,

Franz

[centurion]

Italy bought substantial numbers of standard Vickers guns pre-WW1, and received large numbers of the same from the British during the war:

"Thus when the Vickers became available, Italy was quick off the mark and second only to Great Britain in placing substantial orders. The first Class "C" gun (SN 9655) was despatched in Fenbruary, 1910 and a second one (SN 9982) followed in 1911, soon after which two orders totalling the substantial quantity of 890 guns (SN's 10009-10498 and 10590-10989) were despatched from May, 1912 through July, 1914.

...

Italy entered World War I on the Allied side on may 23, 1915. She received 902 Vickers guns in 1917 and 1,950 more in 1918, supplied from British Army stocks. Some of these were used by Italian units operating in Palestine as by 1917, after two years of war, very few of her original 890 commericla Vickers guns were left."

Goldsmiths "Grand Old Lady of No-Mans-Land, 1994, pages 389-91. This is accompanied by two pictures, one showing men of the Bersaglieri Company of the Italian detachment in Palestine in October 1917 receiving instruction by an Italian soldier on a standard Vickers guns and tripod, and the other being the cover of the April 1916 issue of the illustrated Italian periodical La Lettura, with an illustration depicting Italian Alpine troops in action with a Vickers gun, indicating it was still a front-line MG at that time.

[franzmaximilian]

I asked in an Italian Forum about the mortar that originates this thread.

I have been told it is a Bombarda Maggiora 150mm powered with acetylene. This explains the large water reservoir. Unfortunately I could not find more information about this mortar and it's use.

Franz

[18th Battalion]

I asked in an Italian Forum about the mortar that originates this thread.

I have been told it is a Bombarda Maggiora 150mm powered with acetylene. This explains the large water reservoir. Unfortunately I could not find more information about this mortar and it's use.

Franz

Hi Franz; thanks for the mortar information; we had wandered away from the original topic of the thread.

Acetylene is an interesting form of propellent, but why does it need the water tank?

[centurion]

All the guns supplied by Vickers to Italy before and during WW1 were standard British calibre (303), this is why such guns would be used in Palestine where ammo supplies could be drawn from British forces (which would not be the case if the 6.5 mm Fiat Revelli was used). The majority of Vickers were fitted to aircraft to replace the Fiat Revelli which had proved unsatisfactory. (logistically this would be easier as it avoided a two calibre supply of ammo to ground forces). Of those ordered pre war they were ordered without tripods and there seems to be some doubt as to exactly how many of those ordered were actually delivered as Vickers had some early production difficulties. They appear to have been retired by the time Italy entered WW1 because of the problems of obtaining 303 ammo.

[centurion]

Hi Franz; thanks for the mortar information; we had wandered away from the original topic of the thread.

Acetylene is an interesting form of propellent, but why does it need the water tank?

Because it is generated through a reaction with water.