Death Certificates

[graemerae]

If a soldier were killed in action, or died in a military hospital, would a standard or civilian death certificate be issued and a death recorded? If so in what district - his home? The hospital? What if he died in France or on a ship? At what point would an injured soldier be de-mobbed and become a civilian again?

I am trying to track down Arthur Herbert Elliott White (1883- abt 1916?) (formerly of the Devonshire RFA) and cannot find any record of him on the CWGC or a definitive entry in any online military records. (there are a couple of other threads about him on this board detailing my search), but I can also not find any records of a civilian death using freeBMD or Ancestry.co.uk so I'm now trying to get some ideas about the process and where he may have ended up.

There's a small part of me that suspects my g-grandmother was lying and that he didn't die after all - (rumors of scandal, and a very quick (bigamist?) second marriage exist) so it's possible he was shunted off to a nursing home or an asylum and died much later.

Any clues about the whole process would be appreciated.

[Greyhound]

If he died while serving overseas, the Army would issue a death certificate. Army Overseas Deaths are filed in separate indexes by the GRO, and you can obtain copies although they are usually rather sparse in detail.

If he died in England or Wales, his death would have been recorded in the usual way under the registration district where he died, and should be in the main GRO index. Makes no difference whether he was a serving soldier or a civilian. I imagine the same applies if he happened to die in Scotland, have you checked the Scottish death indexes?

[stevem49]

I have checked the Overseas deaths for WW1 but no Arthur H E White. There are a number of RFA men and some Devon's so without a number you are stumped. Check Ancestry MIC to see if there is an Arhtur H E White - you may be lucky.

Cheers

Steve

[josquin]

Graemerae,

Material posted on Ancestry.com, under "Graeme's Family Tree," indicates that Arthur Herbert Elliott White was born at St. Johns, Cornwall, on

29 December 1883, and died in 1912. There is a BMD Death Index entry for "Arthur H. White," born "about 1885," who died in London, in 1912

(death registered in 3rd Quarter of 1912, at Hackney). The Ancestry material includes documentation for a marriage, on 5 June 1910, which

states that White was at that time employed as a labourer, at HM Dockyard, 11 Yeomans Square. If this documentation is correct, White's

death antedated the Great War.

Regards

Trelawney

[graemerae]

Graemerae,

Material posted on Ancestry.com, under "Graeme's Family Tree," indicates that Arthur Herbert Elliott White was born at St. Johns, Cornwall, on

29 December 1883, and died in 1912. There is a BMD Death Index entry for "Arthur H. White," born "about 1885," who died in London, in 1912

(death registered in 3rd Quarter of 1912, at Hackney). The Ancestry material includes documentation for a marriage, on 5 June 1910, which

states that White was at that time employed as a labourer, at HM Dockyard, 11 Yeomans Square. If this documentation is correct, White's

death antedated the Great War.

Regards

Trelawney

Thank you for the information - that is my tree. I hadn't considered that he perhaps died before the war, but judging by how inaccurate my family's memory has been on other facts it is quite possible. I've ordered three more certificates from the GRO. Fingers crossed I finally locate my man.

ARTHUR H WHITE 1912 Sept HACKNEY 1b 444

ARTHUR WHITE 1913 Mar PANCRAS 1b 47

ARTHUR H WHITE 1914 Jun OLDHAM 8d 857

These match age and name, but the locations are unusual - it seems my family rarely moved from Devon/Cornwall which is another reason I've not looked at these men before.

I will let you know what I find out.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Graeme

[josquin]

Graeme,

A search of the BMD Death Index from 1914 through1980 located only a single entry for an "Arthur H.E. White." He died in 1948 at the age of 81.

Family stories notwithstanding, it appears your man died prior to the war. The results from your search of death certificates will offer some

clarification--and closure.

Trelawney

[Ron Clifton]

If he died in England or Wales, his death would have been recorded in the usual way under the registration district where he died, and should be in the main GRO index. Makes no difference whether he was a serving soldier or a civilian. I imagine the same applies if he happened to die in Scotland, have you checked the Scottish death indexes?

Hello Graeme

Actually, I believe that, where there was a barracks or other fairly large Army establishment, it would be a separate registration sub-district, rather than having BMDs registered in the normal local office, but the rest of what Greyhound says is true.

Ron

[josquin]

Graeme,

Dissenting from Ron's post, at least some Army registrations were recorded at local registry offices; example, Aldershot registrations were done at Farnham rather than

a separate sub-district.

Trelawney

[graemerae]

Thank you for the information - that is my tree. I hadn't considered that he perhaps died before the war, but judging by how inaccurate my family's memory has been on other facts it is quite possible. I've ordered three more certificates from the GRO. Fingers crossed I finally locate my man.

ARTHUR H WHITE 1912 Sept HACKNEY 1b 444

ARTHUR WHITE 1913 Mar PANCRAS 1b 47

ARTHUR H WHITE 1914 Jun OLDHAM 8d 857

These match age and name, but the locations are unusual - it seems my family rarely moved from Devon/Cornwall which is another reason I've not looked at these men before.

I will let you know what I find out.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Graeme

1 above - not him - middle name Henry

2 above - not him - lists Charles as his brother, His brother was Frank -

3 above - not him - although this one is possible. but this Arthur is 3 years too young, and in Lancashire. (I've also found another Arthur White living in Oldham in the 1901 census who this probably is)

Back to the drawing board.... :-(

[Digger]

I can check Ancestry Attestation papers for you if it would help. There are several Arthur Herbert Whites on there. Do you have his full dob, address etc which might help with identifying him.

[graemerae]

I can check Ancestry Attestation papers for you if it would help. There are several Arthur Herbert Whites on there. Do you have his full dob, address etc which might help with identifying him.

Thank you for the offer, and any pointers you might have would be welcome.

I have an ancestry account, and Arthur is my Great Grandfather

http://trees.ancestr...son/-1533276129

and I've hunted through the Military stuff to no avail. He has a very well documented military career from 1909 to 1913 as a Gunner in the Devonport RGA, but everything seems to dry up around 1913/1914. So either he died just prior to the war, or very early on. There are dozens of AH Whites in the records, but nothing I could specifically tie to my Arthur.

• Arthur Herbert Elliott WHITE
• Birth 29 DEC 1883 in St Johns, Anthony, Cornwall

One thing I haven't considered yet - maybe he ran off? Went and hid in the backwoods of Oz or Canada or the US? His existing military career was too much when the war started. There was some scuttlebutt in the family that he was killed, and that his wifes re-marriage was too soon and scandalous. Perhaps the scandal was deeper than that. Maybe I'm going to try looking overseas next.

[grantowi]

Here's a couple of more possables from the GRO list (checked from 1913 - 1918):

Arthur H White / age 31 (1884) / Islington / 1B / 199 / 3qt / 1915

Arthur H White / age 38 (1883) / Bristol / 1A / 3 / 3qt / 1918

Grant

[graemerae]

Here's a couple of more possables from the GRO list (checked from 1913 - 1918):

Arthur H White / age 31 (1884) / Islington / 1B / 199 / 3qt / 1915

Arthur H White / age 38 (1883) / Bristol / 1A / 3 / 3qt / 1918

Grant

Been a while I know (been busy adding my own personal entry to my family tree this year - at the bottom!) But now he's sleeping through the night, I'm trying to get back to finding more about Arthur.

The first chap (Islington) above is listed as Arthur Henry White so that's not him. Still waiting on the second Death Cert.

A few questions though on protocol:

Arthur White served in the Devonshire RGA from 1909 to 1913 when discharged. When war came in 1914 would he have been able to avoid service by claiming his previous stint, or would he have been one of the first people called up due to experience? One possibility is that he NEVER served and perhaps died in the first world war at all. Perhaps his tram-driving skills were a protected profession?

Second - If he did get called up - as he'd served his time in the Devon RGA - what was the likelihood of him going back into that unit? (seeing as he was an experienced gunner) Or would he have ended up wherever the army put him - Infantry for example) There are a couple of other Arthur (H) Whites (but nothing Devon and/or gunnery related)

[Ron Clifton]

Arthur White served in the Devonshire RGA from 1909 to 1913 when discharged. When war came in 1914 would he have been able to avoid service by claiming his previous stint, or would he have been one of the first people called up due to experience? One possibility is that he NEVER served and perhaps died in the first world war at all. Perhaps his tram-driving skills were a protected profession?

Second - If he did get called up - as he'd served his time in the Devon RGA - what was the likelihood of him going back into that unit? (seeing as he was an experienced gunner) Or would he have ended up wherever the army put him - Infantry for example) There are a couple of other Arthur (H) Whites (but nothing Devon and/or gunnery related)

Hello graemerae

Devonshire RGA (like most units with a county name in their title, other than the infantry) was part of the Territorial Force. Men enrolled into the TF for four years at a time, and unless he re-enrolled in 1913 (which seems not to have been the case) he would not have been liable for military service, other than as a volunteer, until conscription was introduced in 1916.

He might have come under some moral pressure from his family or his old unit to re-enrol, but he was not liable to be called up for compulsory service before 1916. He might have chosen to re-enrol in the Devon RGA, which was mainly occupied on coastal defence duties (principally at Plymouth) or he could have enlisted in the New Armies, and could have ended up in the infantry, the RGA or any other corps he chose to join. Or he could simply have chosen not to serve. I don't think tram drivers were considered a reserved or protected occupation, as I believe a number of women performed this job during the war.

Ron

[graemerae]

Hello graemerae

Devonshire RGA (like most units with a county name in their title, other than the infantry) was part of the Territorial Force. Men enrolled into the TF for four years at a time, and unless he re-enrolled in 1913 (which seems not to have been the case) he would not have been liable for military service, other than as a volunteer, until conscription was introduced in 1916.

He might have come under some moral pressure from his family or his old unit to re-enrol, but he was not liable to be called up for compulsory service before 1916. He might have chosen to re-enrol in the Devon RGA, which was mainly occupied on coastal defence duties (principally at Plymouth) or he could have enlisted in the New Armies, and could have ended up in the infantry, the RGA or any other corps he chose to join. Or he could simply have chosen not to serve. I don't think tram drivers were considered a reserved or protected occupation, as I believe a number of women performed this job during the war.

Ron

Ron,

Thank you! That gives me a lot of great information - I've been concentrating mostly on the Devon/Gunnery aspect of my search. I'll broaden it somewhat. There are a couple of Arthur H(erbert) Whites that died early in the war in other units, so I'll take a look at those also.

Graeme

Graeme

[Guest scrappydoo]

If a soldier were killed in action, or died in a military hospital, would a standard or civilian death certificate be issued and a death recorded? If so in what district - his home? The hospital? What if he died in France or on a ship? At what point would an injured soldier be de-mobbed and become a civilian again?

I am trying to track down Arthur Herbert Elliott White (1883- abt 1916?) (formerly of the Devonshire RFA) and cannot find any record of him on the CWGC or a definitive entry in any online military records. (there are a couple of other threads about him on this board detailing my search), but I can also not find any records of a civilian death using freeBMD or Ancestry.co.uk so I'm now trying to get some ideas about the process and where he may have ended up.

There's a small part of me that suspects my g-grandmother was lying and that he didn't die after all - (rumors of scandal, and a very quick (bigamist?) second marriage exist) so it's possible he was shunted off to a nursing home or an asylum and died much later.

Any clues about the whole process would be appreciated.

Hi if you have his details name rank No or reg you can try emailing certificate.services@ips.gsi.gov.uk

www.direct.gov.uk/gro

I managed to get a copy of my wifes late grandads death cert from them it cost £9.25 because he was not identifide? the cert reads death assumed but has his name rank No

age date of death and country hope this helps you eric

[graemerae]

It's been a while and I've been continuously nibbling away at Arthurs past. I still have nothing confirmed. Family history is that he was caught under a gun carriage and gassed, and died afterwards (perhaps back in the UK)

I've searched as much as I can in Ancestry but it's difficult with a such limited information. This is Arthur in my family tree: http://trees.ancestr...son/-1533276129

However - I have recently re-found this:

http://www.cwgc.org/...386635/WHITE, A

WHITE, A

Rank: Bombardier Service No: 26570 Date of Death: 26/09/1915 Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery 56th Reserve Bty.

Everything seems to match. Name, date (based on family events), artillery and it's back in the UK. And he doesn't show up in any of my other searches - I am unable to find anything about Bombardier A White, #26570 in any of the usual places. (National Archives, Ancestry, FreeBMD for example)

Does anyone here have any further ideas how to track down if #26570 is my great grandfather?

I have contacted the GRO with the above information and hope to get a Death Certificate from them.

Any clues on the 56th Reserve Battery would be greatly appreciated also.

Thanks

Graeme

[aradgick]

From LLT:

There were three roles for home-based units of the Royal Artillery:

1. As depot or training units;

2. For providing mobile artillery forces for use in the event of enemy attack (or, as proved to be the case in Ireland in 1916, for use against insurrection);

3. For providing static artillery forces to defend key ports and coastal installations.

The listing below is the establishment of the home-based artillery units as at November 1918, with the exception of anti-aircraft units.

4A Reserve Brigade consisting of 19, 21 and 56 Batteries. Woolwich

Andrewr

[ss002d6252]

26570 White seems to have been at Woolwich when he died, I believe the 56th reserve battery were based at or near their.

I would suspect he's not your man unless he was first brought back to the UK and then allocated to the reserve battery as an administrative measure.

There isn't a MIC for 26570 White so that suggests either he didn't serve overseas or didn't serve overseas with this number.

[ss002d6252]

FreeBMD shows the only A White who died at Woolwich around 26 Sep 1915 was Albert W White, age 37.

[keithmroberts]

There are two possible further actions - one is an email to the CWGC to see if they hold further information, they sometimes do, and the other would be to try to get a sight of the cemetery records. They appear to be all online for the cemetery, but I could not find him. However, since you have paid for a death dertificate, it is probably worth waiting to see if he is still a possible candidate before trying those.

Keith

[ss002d6252]

If he died in the England and Wales he should be recorded on FreeBMD.

An Arthur H White, age 31, died in the September quarter of 1915 in Islington.

[graemerae]

Frustrating.

My Gunner White was originally (1909-1912) part of the Royal Garrison Artillery based in Plymouth. (where the family are all from) I have those records.

This is the Woolwich gravestone (although it doesnt mention the 56th battery) http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=24762337&PIpi=17897454

If he died in the England and Wales he should be recorded on FreeBMD.

An Arthur H White, age 31, died in the September quarter of 1915 in Islington.

I have that death certificate. Arthur Henry White.

[graemerae]

It looks like that woolwich Grave is Albert White - this is from deceasedonline.com

White, Albert

buriedon: 30 Sep 1915

recorded at:

Woolwich Cemetery (Greenwich)

date of death 26 Sep 1915

Back to the drawing board... :-(