65 Squadron RFC/RAF Battle Honours

[Guest ross.hendry]

Please can anyone help, I am researching the History of 65 Sqn and I am specifically interested in the Battle that took place on 4th Nov 1918 whilst 65 Sqn (Sopwith Camels) were flying with 204 Sqn (Sopwith Pups). It is during this air battle they were engaged by a "circus" of some 40 enemy aircraft, that 65 Sqn claimed 9 destroyed and 8 probables. This battle is commerated in the Sqn Crest 15 Swords in Pile, hilts in base, behind a lion passant.

We believe the Sqn was flying Sopwith Camels and was commanded by Maj H V Champion-de-Crespigny, based at Bissegem, Flanders Belgium.

What we are trying to find out is what the enemy aircraft were and what Sqn they belonged to.

They lost only two aircraft and one pilot who were these men?

If anyone can help or point me in the right direction I would be most grateful.

[Dolphin]

Ross

You probably already have this, but just in case you haven't . . .

No 65 Sqn RAF was flying Sopwith Camels (as was No 204 Sqn) in November 1918. On 4 November eight pilots claimed seventeen victories. Among others, the following pilots and aircraft were involved in action between 0845 and 0855:

2Lt W H Bland in E7160 claimed one Fokker D.VII out of control and another in flames;

Lt J Reid USAS was killed in action in E7193;

2Lt H G Luther in F1936 was shot down and made a prisoner of war - he was wounded and his right hand was amputated;

2Lt F R Pemberton USAS in F6355 claimed a Fokker D.VII out of control and was wounded;

Captain J L M White in H7007 claimed four Fokker D.VIIs - one destroyed, one in flames and two out of control (these were the last four of his 22 victories); and

Captain M A Newnham in E7189 claimed two Fokker D.VIIs out of control (these were his 16th and 17th of his eventual 18 victories).

I don't have the details of the other claims readily to hand.

The following German fighter pilot fatalities on the Western Front are listed for 4 November:

Vfw Paul Keusen of Jasta Boelcke was killed at Monbray;

Uffz Paul Schönfelder of Jasta 29 was killed at Oosterzeele, Belgium; and

Uffz Otto Hägele of Jasta 32 was killed at Le Quesnoy.

I hope that this is of some assistance.

Gareth

[BlackSeptember1918]

To add to Gareth's excellent info.

According to the Jasta War Chronology . Camel claims that the author's have attributed to this battle are :

Flgmstr G Hubrich MFJ4 Camel S Deinze 1058

Flgmstr G hubrich MFJ4 Camel Gent 1103

The time dosen't match , but the author's have added this guy as a possible?.Not sure if the German and Entente times were 1 hour apart at this time ?

Ltn Holthusen ....J29 Camel

Vfw B Brunecker J29 Camel

Vfw H Plum J29 Camel

Vfw H Kluth J29 Camel

Vfw H Weibelzahl J29 Camel

No times or locations are given .

Phil.

[BlackSeptember1918]

Thought I would do a bit of digging .

A few things to add are that in the Jasta Pilots . It gives the following :

Holthusen , Plum , Kluth and Weibelzahl no credit for these Nov 4th claims , which is not unusual at this late stage of the war . Brunnecker ( with a double "n" in this reference ) is given credit for a 4th Nov victory .

It also seems to state that Plum wasn't at Jasta 29 , but was on sick leave ?..just some of the problems encounted by the authors I guess ?.

Above the Lines has Jasta 29 stationed at Aertrycke from 5th Oct 1918 to wars end , commanded by Holthusen from 28th Sept to wars end .

Marine-Feldjagdstaffel Nr IV ( if they were involved ? ) was commanded by Leutnant zur See Wilhelm from 15th Oct 18 till wars end .

MFJ 4 Was formed on 1st Sept 1918 from personal from the Seefrontstaffel . I believe they were based at Vlissinghem , and indeed were flying DVII's .

Phil.

[BlackSeptember1918]

Just checked and the German time was 1 hour ahead from 6th Oct 1918 onwards , so MFJ 4 are well in the picture ( as would be expected )

Phil.

[BlackSeptember1918]

Ross

I am guessing you have read the Communiques section on this battle ? . If not I can type the few paragraphs in , if you like . As I'm sure your aware , they can't be relied upon as fact , but often they do make interesting reading .

Phil.

[Dolphin]

Ross

Further to my earlier post, Lt A J Cleare of No 65 Sqn in E7261 was credited with a Fokker D.VII crashed and another D.VII out of control at around 0850 on 4 November.

Lt W R Allison was credited with two Fokkers destroyed, but I don't have the serial of the Camel he was flying at the time.

No 204 Sqn pilots credited with victories in the action were:

2Lt P A King in D9622 - a Fokker D.VII shot down in flames over Melle at 0845; and

2Lt S Green in F6037 - a Fokker D.VII destroyed over Melle at 0840.

I hope this helps.

Gareth