Looking for GF at Jutland

[2pjmartin]

Hello all,

My first post, hopefully request is reasonable.

It has long been a "family" fact that my Grandfather (GF) was a boy seaman (mum called him the Captain's boy) at the battle of Jutland (of course in May of 1916). I have attached my Grandfather's Royal Navy Service Records from the National Archives. It shows his entry as December of 1916 into the HMS Ganges. I am struggling to find out any earlier information on him, to place him at Jutland Can anyone help identify another organization that my GF may have been a part of, that he might have turned up in some capactity at the Battle of Jutland?

His name is Robert Empraim Lambert, he later served as a Chief Warrant Officer Writer and eventually retired from the Royal Navy in 1948.

Also, if anyone can identify the 2nd ship on the attached service records (entry just under the HMS Ganges). It is very hard to read. Data on the ship I believe is February 7, 1918.

Thanks for the help!!!

Paul

National Archives PDF 1916-1919.pdf

[2pjmartin]

Hello all again,

I am attaching a picture of my GF as a very young man in his uniform. Can anyone determine if this picture is of GF in a Royal Navy uniform? I am thinking it might be some other organization or club that might be associated with Royal Navy.

Again, trying to place my GF at Jutland, while his Service Records don't show him in Royal Navy until 6 months after the Battle of Jutland.

Possibly this picture maybe a clue.

Thanks again

paul

[dfaulder]

Paul,

Welcome to the forum. Others (more expert) will probably comment on the possible Jutland link.

"Family Facts" are often shall we say "approximations" either through misunderstanding, wishful thinking or even a desire to cover up something. (My Grandmother always used to say her father was "nearly an MP" - actually he was disqualified by an election court for bribing the electorate!). I recently came across another thread which caused much discussion possibly because the family thought somehow someone had served with the Royal Naval Division - see The HARRY LUND investigation by 'Team Harry', R.A.M.C. (ATT. R.N.D.) what does this mean?

It might be worth trying to find an alternative explanation that could have lead to the "fact". For instance,

• perhaps the Commanding officer at Ganges had served at Jutland. (If I remember correctly, Ganges was a "shore establishment" which I think had old ships as part of the establishment during WW1 - certainly more recently Ganges had a full sailing ship's mast onshore for mast climbing practice and display purposes - with the button-boy climbing right to the top. Possibly someone who had lost his ship at Jutland may have been associated with Ganges.)
• or he served on a ship that had been at Jutland?

HTH

David

[Bart150]

Paul

Sorry but it seems clear that your grandfather was not at Jutland. The document shows, as you already know, that he was in the Navy for many years, and, as David suggests, he may well have served on a ship that had been at Jutland. I’ve seen family myths grow up in that way before.

Ganges was a training establishment at Shotley on the Suffolk coast opposite Harwich. My father was there from 6.12.1917 to 4.9.1918 – ie at the same time as your grandfather. My father was a bit younger but he was there for a shorter time. I suppose that was because my father had previously been at the Greenwich Hospital School, so he was used to climbing up masts and tying knots. Your grandfather probably had to learn the ropes from scratch, so to speak, after working in an office as a clerk.

There is an interesting museum at Shotley: http://www.hmsgangesmuseum.org.uk/

There are several books about life at HMS Ganges.

This one is OK: H. M. S. "Ganges": Roll on My Dozen by John Douglas.

This one is absolutely splendid: Band of Brothers by David Phillipson.

I recommend anyone with a relative who was at Ganges to read the Phillipson book.

Bart

[mikefry]

Hello all,

My first post, hopefully request is reasonable.

It has long been a "family" fact that my Grandfather (GF) was a boy seaman (mum called him the Captain's boy) at the battle of Jutland (of course in May of 1916). I have attached my Grandfather's Royal Navy Service Records from the National Archives. It shows his entry as December of 1916 into the HMS Ganges. I am struggling to find out any earlier information on him, to place him at Jutland Can anyone help identify another organization that my GF may have been a part of, that he might have turned up in some capactity at the Battle of Jutland?

His name is Robert Empraim Lambert, he later served as a Chief Warrant Officer Writer and eventually retired from the Royal Navy in 1948.

Also, if anyone can identify the 2nd ship on the attached service records (entry just under the HMS Ganges). It is very hard to read. Data on the ship I believe is February 7, 1918.

Thanks for the help!!!

Paul

As others have said, Family tales are usually just that - tales. From what I can see, he only ever made it on to one non-shore-base ship - the Emperor of India - and that for less than a month. So the Jutland story can be dismissed, particularly since he'd only just made Ordinary Seaman by the end of the war.

I can't read the second entry, but taken with the others, I would assume that it's another shore base.

[horatio2]

I agree - definitely not at Jutland. I assume you also have his later record as a Writer:-

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=7322165&queryType=1&resultcount=1

The Fleet Air Arm Museum will have his original enlistment papers which, because he joined as a boy, should include his Parental Consent paperwork.

[2pjmartin]

Wow, thanks to everyone for all the responses, what a great resource this forum will be!! Your responses were all helpful.

I agree with all that GF's service record does not put him in the time frame of Jutland, so let me ask my question another way (and thanks for your patience). In the attachment of GF as a young sailor. Would you suggest that this uniform is that of a Boy Seaman at HMS Ganges, or does this look like the uniform of a organization not attached to Royal Navy? I believe the picture is of him starting his sea-life. if it's not in the Royal Navy at HMS Ganges, then what organization is it from?

Beside Amazon, does anyone know of good source to get the "Band of Brothers by David Phillipson". I am living in the States now.

Horatio2 had stated "The Fleet Air Arm Museum will have his original enlistment papers which, because he joined as a boy, should include his Parental Consent paperwork". That would be a great resource, but why would the "Fleet Air Arm Museum" have this information? Any recommendations on contacting them?

My GF was a Writer in the Royal Navy for 32 years, is there a Writer "section" to the Great War Forum? I am hoping to connect with other "Grandsons" of Royal Navy Writers to help with my research of GF?

Thanks again very much,

Paul

[Bart150]

Hi Paul

Abebooks.com has loads of copies of the Phillipson book at the moment. Very cheap too.

It looks like a straightforward RN uniform to me except there seems to be no ship name on his cap. I'm sure others can make more informed comment.

I'll leave the Fleet Air Arm Museum to others too.

'Writer' is just the RN's word for clerk, so I don't there's much exciting to discuss about it.

I had an uncle (born 1906) who was a writer and rose from the lower deck to lieutenant-commander; at that level of course a man can be dealing with quite complex admin problems.

The advantage of the specialism is that it is relatively easier to get another job (eg accountant or bursar) when you retire.

Good luck

Bart

[horatio2]

The photograph could well be a GANGES boy. It is square-rig naval uniform.

The FAA Museum has a huge number of WW1 naval records in its archive. www.fleetairarm.com and click on RESEARCH for more information.

[2pjmartin]

Hello Bart,

You hit the nail on the head with the comment: "The advantage of the specialism is that it is relatively easier to get another job (eg accountant or bursar) when you retire." As after 32 years in the Royal Navy and serving on staff of Commander-in-Chiefs, he was hired by the Queen Mother (Queen Mary) and work for her as a Clerk-Comptroller for 5 years, before doing the same job for Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother eventually retiring in 1968.

He was not a powerful man or a man of means, but was surrounded by history. It's quite exciting to be researching him, like finding out about him for the first time.

I ordered the Band of Brothers from ABEBOOKS, just now. Thanks for the tip.

Paul

[Bart150]

Hello Paul

I’ve just noticed: the Phillipson book contains a photo of the author with uniform exactly like yours (no GANGES on the cap).

Extract:

‘Any of you lot for Nineteen Mess?’ A couple of us owned to it. 'You poor sods!’ he leered and turned away.

‘Why?’

‘ Chief Blenkinsop, the Black Angel, they call ‘im. ‘E’s a pig’s orphan!’

My uncle (who wasn't at Ganges) spent the rest of his working days as bursar of an agricultural college in Suffolk. Nothing so exciting, but quite comfortable I think.

Bart

[james_harvey]

hi def a photo of a boy seaman, in ww1 they did not have the ships name of the cap tally the same applied in ww2.

the 2nd ship name looks like Indefaible to me

i hope this helps

Regards

James

[David_Underdown]

Are you aware he was appointed MVO (Member, fifth class, of the Royal Victorian Order) in the 1961 New Year Honours? http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/42231/supplements/8893

[SiegeGunner]

the 2nd ship name looks like Indefaible to me

Too few letters for it to be Indefatigable, and in any case the dates are 1918 and Indefatigable was sunk at Jutland in 1916.

[2pjmartin]

I think we all agree that the Picture of GF as a boy seaman is a RN unitform, and that it was probably taken at Ganges (entry December of 1916). As others stated, this would definitely eliminate him from Jutland. Thanks for the help! I am seeing Family at our Thanksgiving Holiday in a few weeks and will see what other information they might have on GF and Jutland.

David pointed out that GF was "appointed MVO (Member, fifth class, of the Royal Victorian Order) in the 1961 New Year Honours". I did know that , but only because I GOOGLED his full name when I started researching GF. Does anyone know why a RN Writer be awarded an MVO?

One more question, is the FAA Museum archives an "on-line" retrieval of information, or do you show in person?

Thanks

Paul

[horatio2]

The Royal Victorian Order is a decoration in the personal gift of the Queen, so this was clearly given for his service to the Queen Mother.

The FAAM do a postal service (see website) but nothing on-line.

[David_Underdown]

Yes, the Royal Victorian Order-and the related Royal Victorian Medal-is awarded (effectively) for services to the Royal Family directly. So it's usually made to those working in the Royal Household in one capacity or another, or to diplomats who have been involved in organising a state visit to the country where they are posted, and as one slight oddity, the Director of Music at St Paul's quite often ends up with a gong from this order too. I think when made to those in the armed forces (like appointments to the Order of the Bath and the Order of the British Empire), the grade to which you can be appointed depends on your rank.

It was due to his royal service that I had a suspiscion that Lambert may well have got something like the MVO that I checked him out in the London Gazette. Incidentally, I think they'll sell you a nicely bound souvenir reprint of the relevant issue if you want.

[bsears]

The Harwich Brewery produces an ale called 'Ganges'. The emblem is the elephant from the old school.

There is still quite a lot of memorabilia relating to the sea school in Harwich pubs.