2nd Batt South Lancashire Regiment

[steven belfast]

Hi all

I have just joined the forum today, yesterday i learned for the first time in my 37 years on this earth that my great grandfather, was a member of the above regiment in WW1, so far i have managed to get his medal card and traced him on the 1911 census, the ulster conevant and the commonwealth graves site.

i spent a right hours last night tring to trace the regiments activites in ww1 without much luck, he is buried in belfast and his death is given as 19th Semptember 1916, any help or information on the South Lancashires or directions to some websites books anything at all would make me a happy chappy as the saying gos.

I have been to the somme and will be going back next over the period of the 1st of July, i am not sure of the South Lancs have a permanent mem over there if anyone knows if there is that would be a great help. As i intend to try and retrace my great grandfathers footsteps in whatever way i can.

Any help would be greatly appreicated

[ulsterlad2]

Hi Steven. I take it that your GGF was T Clulow? If you haven't yet had a chance to visit his grave and would like a photo of it give me a shout.

[ulsterlad2]

I see that Thomas Clulow arrived in theatre on 14th August 1914 and was discharged on 6th August 1915. During that time the 2nd SLanc were attached to 7th Brigade, 3rd Division.

This will give you an idea of his possible movements.: From the LLT. The actions of the 3rd Division in the time he was there.

http://www.1914-1918.net/3div.htm

The history of 3rd Division

One of the first British formations to move to France, the 3rd Division remained on the Western Front throughout the war. It took part in most of the major actions, including:

1914

The Battle of Mons and the subsequent retreat, including the the Rearguard action of Solesmes

The Battle of Le Cateau

The Battle of the Marne

The Battle of the Aisne including participation in the Actions on the Aisne heights

The Battles of La Bassee and Messines 1914

First Battle of Ypres

1915

Winter Operations 1914-15

The First Attack on Bellewaarde

The Actions of Hooge

[steven belfast]

Hi Steven. I take it that your GGF was T Clulow? If you haven't yet had a chance to visit his grave and would like a photo of it give me a shout.

Yes that is my GGF, i havent been at his grave yet to my shame, but in my defence i only found all this out yesterday, family feuds and no one has spoke to anyone for years, it was by chance with an old family friend that this all came out yesterday when i was talking about my somme trip last year and going again next year, any help you can give me i can assure you will be much appreicated, i couldnt make much sense of the medal card to be honest, but from what you have posted he must have been wounded and discharged in 1915 and died in 1916 maybe as a resut of his wounds hence the regimental headstone?.

From what you have posted and to which i am very grateful is all news to me, and is much appreicated, the photo would be great.

[ulsterlad2]

Hi Steven. That's certainly a possibility.

Email is on its way. BTW. edit your post and remove your email address from public view.

Kind regards.

[steven belfast]

Thank you very much for the photo very much appreicated, 100 times further on than what i was yesterday, once again thank you

[k.skinner]

Hi Steven,

There are pension records for your GGF at Ancestry, free access at the moment according to the Daily Mail, also the war diary for his battalion for

the period your interested in is held at the National Archives catalogue reference WO95/1414, hope this helps,

regards Keith.

[steven belfast]

keith and ulsterlad

with your valuable help, i dont think any words of mine could actually express my gratitude to you both, i have been able to view, down load and print my GGF records, he enlisted in 1903 and seen service in india before being sent to france in 1914, he was wounded at the battle of aisne on the 20-9-14, he recieved gun shot wounds to both legs and his right arm, he must have suffered a head wound of sorts as he suffered from aphasia as well, he was discharged being unfit for war duty on the 6-8-15, as posted he died on the 19-9-16, being a regular soldier would explain the headstone with regimental enscription.

Those records include his marriage to my great grand mother and shows the births of my granda and my 2 great uncles, fascinating but sad reading.

Many many thanks to you both

Steven

[ulsterlad2]

Hi Steven. You're very welcome. Glad I could help you out a little.

[Paul D Kendall]

Steven,

The 2nd South Lancashire Regiment crossed the River Aisne close to Vailly on 14th Septemebr 1914. This battalion was holding the line at Rouge Maison when your great grandfather was wounded on 20th September.

I visited the Aisne 1914 battlefield a couple of months ago and I have photos of Vailly. If you are interested I can send to you by email these images. Just send me an email to paul.kendall193@btinternet.com with your email details and I will send them to you.

Do you have an image of your great grandfather. I am writing a book on the Battle of the Aisne which provides an account of the battle and features the images and photos of some of the men who took part.

I look forward to your response.

Kind regards

Paul Kendall

[steven belfast]

Paul

I took the bull by the horns to today and went and spoke to a family member, about this has it has upset me greatly that i have been in france and wasnt aware that my GGF had served there, i went and spoke to a uncle of mine through one thing or another with typical families we hadnt spoken in a few years, he has a protrait of my GGF and his medals, which he has promised me he will look out and give them to me, once i get the picture i will email it to you, my GGF suffered from ptsd by all accounts and was never the same after he returned, i also found out today my GGF brother was killed in france once i got his name i have managed to find out this

http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=528620

i couldnt find the war diaries for the 2nd South Lancs, but will keep looking, if you have anything which you think would be useful to me regarding my GGF regiments activites in frsnce i would be eternally grateful.

[Paul D Kendall]

Paul

I took the bull by the horns to today and went and spoke to a family member, about this has it has upset me greatly that i have been in france and wasnt aware that my GGF had served there, i went and spoke to a uncle of mine through one thing or another with typical families we hadnt spoken in a few years, he has a protrait of my GGF and his medals, which he has promised me he will look out and give them to me, once i get the picture i will email it to you, my GGF suffered from ptsd by all accounts and was never the same after he returned, i also found out today my GGF brother was killed in france once i got his name i have managed to find out this

http://www.twgpp.org/information.php?id=528620

i couldnt find the war diaries for the 2nd South Lancs, but will keep looking, if you have anything which you think would be useful to me regarding my GGF regiments activites in frsnce i would be eternally grateful.

Stephen,

Many thanks for your reply to my post. It took 80 years for a member of our family to visit the memorial to my great grandfather who was killed in 1917. No one in our family spoke about it and I had to do the research using very minimal information to begin with, but once you start there is always the desire to learn more.

I am planning to go to the National Archives at Kew later this week and will look in the 2nd South Lancashire war diary. I will scan relevant pages relating to the Aisne 1914 and send them to you.

I look forward to seeing a photo of your great grandfather and hope that we can both pay tribute to him in the book.

Kind regards

Paul

[edwin astill]

Paul

If you could also copy me in with the scans, I'd be grateful

Thanks

Edwin

[Paul D Kendall]

Edwin,

I will send you the scans by email too.

Kind regards

Paul

[steven belfast]

Stephen,

Many thanks for your reply to my post. It took 80 years for a member of our family to visit the memorial to my great grandfather who was killed in 1917. No one in our family spoke about it and I had to do the research using very minimal information to begin with, but once you start there is always the desire to learn more.

I am planning to go to the National Archives at Kew later this week and will look in the 2nd South Lancashire war diary. I will scan relevant pages relating to the Aisne 1914 and send them to you.

I look forward to seeing a photo of your great grandfather and hope that we can both pay tribute to him in the book.

Kind regards

Paul

Paul

That would be great, he was there on the 20th of September 1914, and information you could shed on this would be fantastic

[steven belfast]

Paul

Sent you an email yesterday, just ot confirm my email details wit your goodself

[Paul D Kendall]

Stephen, Edwin,

I have sent you some information. I hope that it is helpful.

Best wishes

Paul

[steven belfast]

Stephen, Edwin,

I have sent you some information. I hope that it is helpful.

Best wishes

Paul

Many thanks paul, i got a newspaper clipping yesterday (death notice and funeral arrangement) hopefully picture by the weekend

[steven belfast]

My GGF seen service in india, can anyone help in pointing me in the right direction for records of this

[philipdavies48]

Hi a couple of years late I know but I have just picked up on your thread on the 2nd South Lancs Regiment. I recently visited the battelefield at Mons with the South Wales branch of the WFA. At Nouvelles we visited the grave of 10157 Pte. James Price (16) of Mountain Ash Glamorgan. He was a regular soldier having joined the army in December 1913 for seven years. I believe that he was a Drummer. He lied about his age to join the army but the age on his CWGC headstone is correct. Prior to joiining the regiment he was a coal miner. I presume he joined the South Lancs so that no-one would know him and he could exaggerate his age.

Mention is made in one of the posts of a book on the South Lancs. Would like to know more of this alos if there is any information on James Price I would be grateful to havre it. His service papers survive but are quite sparse.

Any further help would be much appreciated.

Best Wishes

Phil

[Stephen Nulty]

He was one of 38 men of the Battalion who died that day. The diary (see image) is quite light on detail.

[steven belfast]

Stephen would the diary for that day also cover B company and there movements

[Stephen Nulty]

That's the only entry, I'm afraid

[gregirving]

Dear All.

I've been following this thread with great interest as I have researching the footsteps of my great great grandfather, Private John Melia (19880), who was in A company of the second Battalion during the First World War. We have recently doscovered two wonderful letters he wrote just prior to the Battle of the Somme, 1916. The first was written on 25/5/16 where he describes his experience of life on the front line, "its like hell on earth, the ground shakes and the air is alive with fire...", the letter also includes a first hand account of being gassed. The second letter, written a month later describes in colourful detail some of the activites of the 2nd battalion away from the front line. Sadly, the letters stop there as he died on 3/7/16.

If anyone has any war diary details for the 2nd Battalion around these dates I would love to read them? My understanding is that on the day of his death the second battalion had just crossed the Ancre at Blackhorse Bridge and attacked south of Thiepval? However, I have little detail about the specific movements of A company on this date.

Thanks for all your help

Greg

greg_irving@hotmail.com

If anyone would like to read the letters please feel free to contact me.

[Peter Shand]

Hi Greg, Yes, the location of the crossing of the Ancre is correct and your great -great- grandfather would likely have crossed on the Blackhorse bridge on the movement from Martinsaart Wood to the front line trenches during the night of July 2/3.

The 2nd South Lancs were one of the three battalions of the 75th brigade, 25th division which attacked the Liepzig Redoubt east of Authuille on the morning of July 3rd, 1916. The other two were the 8th Border Regiment and the 11th Cheshires. The attack was delayed because the troops had difficulty moving into the front-line trenches due to the casualties of July 1st attacks. The artillery support was premature as the change in time was not given to the division's batteries.

At the appointed time off they went, up the slope towards the German lines on the top of the hill.

The 8th Border Battalion War Diary gives the account of the attack:

The Batt’n advanced in 4 waves. D a & A Coy’s from our front line B & C Coy’s from our support line.

Each company had two platoons in line crossing on a front of some 150 or 200 yards followed by the other two platoons. As the leading companies left the front trench their place was taken by the two leading Platoons of each supporting Company. Touch was kept with the Cheshires by means of runners. This means of communication was also adopted to keep touch with the 2^nd S. Lancs. Reg’t. The leading companies understood their objectives and had sufficient time to explain their orders to their men according to the operation orders issued in Martinsaart Wood. The Coy’s in support had not sufficient time to explain these orders thoroughly to their men owing to the distance from the front line and the enemy’s shell fire.

The 1^st two waves went out punctually at the appointed hour, the other two Coy’s were held in the front line till it was seen how things were going and till reinforcements were requested. A message was sent back asking for reinforcements and bombs and these were sent up immediately. 0 (?) platoon as at this time were sent up no reinforcements had arrived from the reserve to take our place. Eventually all reinforcements were sent except a platoon with 2 Lewis guns. The last reserve of 2 platoons did not reach the enemy line but returned with the Battalion when it retired. The frontage occupied In the German line was about 180 yards which had been much damaged by our shell fire and there was very little cover. The right flank giving way was the cause of the Batt’n falling back and also the unfortunate word “retire” undoubtedly passed along from the right. Major Birt ordered the left to conform.

Orders and messages referring to the operations took a very long time to reach Batt’n H Q owing to the dark and the orderlies being near (sent?) to the trenches. There was no telephone to Batt’n H Q and all messages were by runners. This delayed instructions to O C Coy’s and did not give them time to arrange bombing parties, etc for clearing the German communication trenches. The German rifle & machine gun fire was not particularly severe and had communication with the right and left been kept up throughout the attack would have been successful.

During the operation we suffered the following casualties:

4 officers killed and 10 wounded

430 casualties other ranks

The 11/ Cheshires and 2/ South Lancashires war diaries echo the futility and heavy casualties:

11/ Cheshires

They passed over into No Man’s Land in good order but, about 50 yards from the German trench, heavy machine gun fire brought the attack to a standstill. Line after line of troops were mown down.

Of 677 soldiers who had gone into action, only 356 were able to answer the roll call on the 4^th, 321 men were dead, missing or wounded.

2/ South Lancashires

About 7:00 am it was apparent that the enemy’s front line had been entered, but no information was received at Battalion Headquarters, and a little later there was every sign that the attack had generally broken down.

At 9:45 am, Colonel Cotton reported that, “The attack is unsuccessful”.

In the few hours of fighting, the battalion had lost 14 officers and 300 other ranks casualties.

The three battalions of the 25^th Division had over a thousand casualties that morning, probably 300 to 400 dead for no gain.

I'll send you a diagram showing the trenches and the line of attack on a Goggle Earth base.

I hope this helps, Regards, Pete