Rifle Regiment Buttons

[Simon127]

Hi all,

I am trying to find out a bit about the black buttons worn Rifle Regiments. My Great Grandfather served in the Leeds Rifles (7 Battalion PWO West Yorkshire Regiment) and a photo shows him with what appear to be a bugle and crown on his tunic buttons (the photo was taken in France around, I suspect 1915) .

Does anyone know what these buttons were made from (horn? Bakelite?) and also whether maker's marks are encountered? Does anyone have a picture of the front or reverse?

Thanks in advance,

Simon

[auchonvillerssomme]

Rifle buttons at that time were made of horn, later black metal was used. Bakelite wasn't used at that time for military buttons.

Can't recall what makers I have on the horn ones in my collection, Groves was common but many were unmarked.

[Simon127]

Thanks for that Mick.

And at the time they would have had a King's Crown? I only ask as the Osprey book on the 'British Tommy 1914 -1918' shows a QVC on the close up of the plate featuring a Rifle Brigade soldier.

Didn't the Rifle Bridage have their own with 'RB' between the bugle strings?

S

[Graham Stewart]

Rifle buttons at that time were made of horn, later black metal was used. Bakelite wasn't used at that time for military buttons.

Can't recall what makers I have on the horn ones in my collection, Groves was common but many were unmarked.

Unfortunately not entirely true as those buttons worn by units which had a Rifle Volunteer tradition, which they carried over in 1881 could be found wearing buttons in metal too. I have a 4th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers 1909 pattern Rifle Grey jacket which has blackened brass buttons which are adorned with a Kings Crown, which is seperate from the stringed horn.

The same pattern button can also be found with QVC in silver plate(officers), whitemetal and again blackened brass.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for that Mick.

And at the time they would have had a King's Crown? I only ask as the Osprey book on the 'British Tommy 1914 -1918' shows a QVC on the close up of the plate featuring a Rifle Brigade soldier.

Didn't the Rifle Bridage have their own with 'RB' between the bugle strings?

S

Yes, a King's Crown was more usual unless very old stocks were being used.

[Simon127]

Thanks chaps,

I have my eye on a horn example which has RB between the strings of the bugle and a plain reverse with a fixed brass shank. Could you advise whether this example would be the type worn during WW1?

Thanks again,

Simon

[auchonvillerssomme]

Unfortunately not entirely true as those buttons worn by units which had a Rifle Volunteer tradition, which they carried over in 1881 could be found wearing buttons in metal too. I have a 4th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers 1909 pattern Rifle Grey jacket which has blackened brass buttons which are adorned with a Kings Crown, which is seperate from the stringed horn.

The same pattern button can also be found with QVC in silver plate(officers), whitemetal and again blackened brass.

I stand corrected but how do you know the buttons are contemporary to the jacket and that other units which had a Rifle Volunteer tradition wore blackened metal buttons, are they officer quality? Who's the maker? It was certainly common for officer buttons to be blackened metal but OR's during WW1 are you sure?

Presumably when you say the crown is seperate from the bugle there is a bow below?

Mick

[ARABIS]

Simon,

There is an article in the August 1985 edition of Military Modelling magazine on the Leeds Rifles c.1906 by Major Roy Wilson, illustrated by W. Younghusband. This article has a coloured drawing of the black rifles pattern button they wore. It has a stringed horn below the King's crown, no RB. The pattern with RB between the strings was worn by the Rifle Brigade.

David.

[Andrew Upton]

And at the time they would have had a King's Crown? I only ask as the Osprey book on the 'British Tommy 1914 -1918' shows a QVC on the close up of the plate featuring a Rifle Brigade soldier.

Yes, a King's Crown was more usual unless very old stocks were being used.

As Frogsmile said, it would usually be the KC, and not the QC - the book illustration is depicting an old/regular pre-war soldier with service in the Boer War behind him, hence he's managed to hang on to his older pattern ones.

[Graham Stewart]

I stand corrected but how do you know the buttons are contemporary to the jacket and that other units which had a Rifle Volunteer tradition wore blackened metal buttons, are they officer quality? Who's the maker? It was certainly common for officer buttons to be blackened metal but OR's during WW1 are you sure?

Presumably when you say the crown is seperate from the bugle there is a bow below?

Mick

Being away from home I can't give you an illustration, but your description of of the crown above a stringed bugle with bow is correct. I can't remember exactly who manufactured them, but Hobsons springs to mind as they seem to have made a lot of stuff for the Volunteers.

The buttons referred to came with the jacket and I have a number of illustrations at home of both the 1st Volunteer Bn, NF and 4th Bn, NF wearing the Rifle Grey jacket with these blackened brass buttons with both QVC and KC. These particular buttons were also worn on SD by these battalions.

If I remember correctly 6th Bn, DLI, anther T.F. Battalion with Rifle traditions, also wore blackend brass buttons with service dress of a regimental pattern - again a stringed bugle(DLI pattern) with KC.

[Simon127]

Thanks gents I will have to try to find an example without the the RB then, Out of sheer curiosity, does any one know how on earth you get a crown and a bugle onto a piece of horn? How would they produce these en masse? I would have thought that blackening brass would seem easier - and besides weren't Rifle regiment's cap badges blackened brass?

David (Arabis), thanks for the info regarding the article. Any idea where I might be able to get hold of it? Also going back to the RB button, am I right in thinking a WW1 example would have RB on it? I might have to get it anyway....

Thanks again,

S

[FROGSMILE]

I think this is the pattern of button to which Graham refers, although this one is not metal. This is the rifle regiments GS button of the regular army other ranks but it was widely used by TF rifles units. Note: no RB.

Edited 8 February , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

If I remember correctly 6th Bn, DLI, anther T.F. Battalion with Rifle traditions, also wore blackend brass buttons with service dress of a regimental pattern - again a stringed bugle(DLI pattern) with KC.

Someone I know has also seen ordinary GS buttons that had been blackened for Rifle use, obviously a case of making do with what was on hand.

Out of sheer curiosity, does any one know how on earth you get a crown and a bugle onto a piece of horn? How would they produce these en masse?

They are made more or less the same way as ordinary buttons were made, and still are made today. Lots of people needed black buttons, the Police were one. To start, according to Wikipedia "horn" is a bit of a misnomer, and deer antler was more commonly used. This would be heated, and it becomes soft/maleable, and I would assume some sort of dye to colour it truely black would be added at this stage. This would then be placed in the relvant die and stamped, giving the pattern, and finished as per ordinary uniform buttons. Nowadays they use cast plastic for the modern Rifles black buttons.

[Graham Stewart]

I think this is the pattern of button to which Graham refers, although this one is not metal. This is the RB button but it was widely used by other units. Note: no RB.

Almost the same, but those for Rifle Volunteers have a stringed bugle, rather than ribboned in this case. The blackened brass ones also have a slightly dimpled finish, but those in whitemetal and silverplate have a smooth finish.

[Simon127]

So, let me get this straight: Rifle Regiment volunteers feature a crown with strings running from the crown whereas regular Rifle Regiments have a bow beneath the crown?

Attached is a picture of the Rifle Brigade example I've aquired which I understand to be WW1 period. I have seen Victorian examples also featuring 'RB' beneath the bugle.

S

[ARABIS]

Simon,

Your great-grandfather was not in the Rifle Brigade so no RB on his buttons. The pattern illustrated in the Military Modelling article is the same one as illustrated in post #12 of this topic. If you want to pm me with your address I can send you copies of the the article.

David.

[MBrockway]

Pals,

On the subject of rifles buttons, here's something definitive on the KRRC's practice at least:


[source: Plate k in The Annals of the King's Royal Rifle Corps - Appendix dealing with Uniform, Armament and Equipment by S.M.Milne & Maj-Gen Astley Terry, 1913]

On page 32 of the same volume, it states ..

"In 1881 regimental numbers were abolished, and consequently the '60' was eliminated from all clothing, badges, and buttons."

This is not strictly true as I believe the central roundel of the crossbelt badge still had '60' inside the strung hunting horn in line with the general "Peninsula" badge used on KRRC publications etc.

Then in a footnote to that sentence ...

"The men's buttons now had a crown and bugle only, and can hardly be called regimental."


Cheers,
Mark

[MBrockway]

It can sometimes be difficult to differentiate blackened Rifles buttons from the dark brown compressed leather buttons used more generally from mid-war onwards to save brass.

Obviously rifles buttons save brass anyway, so these leather buttons are rarely seen in rifles regiments and the various rifle TF battalions.

These came in two styles - the 'football' and a version with the GS arms stamped on it.

[picture courtesy of Pal ] [picture courtesy of Geoff Caulton]

The rifles buttons usually have a hint of the hunting horn shape visible with the light often catching the bell of the horn and seem flatter. The leather button is slightly larger and seems to have a thicker, more rounded edge. The 'football' versions are often much smoother than might be expected (as in the left hand example above) ...

Blackened Rifles buttons Leather buttons

Here are couple examples of Army Service Corps (ASC) groups showing the leather buttons alongside the brass General Service button ...

[left: 193 Coy of the Army Service Corps Motor Transport Section on guard in Bristol picture courtesy of Paul Townsend - see Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/brizzlebornandbred/5151158305/]
[right: picture courtesy of thardy1 - see Flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/14684508@N02/15063239826/]

Were it not for the ASC cap badge and the comparison with neighbours wearing brass GS buttons, the unwary might easily mis-identify these men as wearing blackened rifles buttons!

[MBrockway]

Another guideline worth remembering is that while presence of rifles buttons points to a rifles regiment (or a TF battalion with rifles traditions), absence of blackened rifles buttons does not prove a man is not in a rifles unit!

See this image of three KRRC soldiers - two are wearing rifles buttons, one has brass GS buttons.

I have similar images showing riflemen of the Rifle Brigade side-by-side wearing both brass GS and rifles buttons.

One often sees reference to this being due to shortages of rifles buttons early in the war, but the Overseas chevrons in the image above date it to Spring 1918 and the chap on the right clearly has had time to put up his LSGC chevron and three wound stripes, so probably not a SD tunic he has only just received.

One cannot rule out seeing brass GS buttons in rifles regiments at any point in the War.

[MBrockway]

The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) wore a button with the strung hunting horn surrounded by a thistle wreath ...

This is a modern version from the 1950's

[MBrockway]

Don't forget there is a huge wealth of information on use of blackened rifles buttons including specific regimental variations in Grumpy's brilliant Classic Thread here: Regimental buttons

[MBrockway]

Another battalion to add to the list of those sporting blackened rifles buttons - 1st/7th (Cyclist) Battalion, The Welsh Regiment (and its 2nd and 3rd line siblings).

Although a cyclist unit by the Great War, the battalion's origins were in the volunteer rifle corps being formerly various units of the Glamorganshire VRC, hence the rifles traditions.

They also wore a blackened version of the Welsh Regt Prince of Wales feathers cap badge.

One to watch out for as the blackened buttons/badge might well be mistaken for the Civil Service Rifles.

The battalion was also subject to the same usual difficulties with acquiring supplies of rifles buttons, so you will regularly see 7th/Welsh wearing brass GS buttons.

See here: Pal Tyneside Chinaman's 1st/7th Welsh Regt photo

 

Edited 29 September , 2018 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

Pal @Kitchener's Bugle has just posted this excellent image of the flying ace Capt. Albert Ball, VC wearing his Robin Hood's Rifles uniform with blackened rifles buttons clearly seen.

The battalion's full title was 1/7th (Robin Hood) Battalion, The Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Regiment)

See here

[MBrockway]

Another TF battalion with rifle volunteer roots that wore blackened rifles buttons to add to our list is the 6th Battalion, East Surrey Regiment.

 

Their antecedents were (going backwards in chronology)

6th Bn,  East Surrey Regiment (TF)

3rd VB, East Surrey Regiment
5th Surrey RVC (renumbering of 6th Surrey RVC)
6th Surrey RVC (amalgamations of the earlier corps)
6th, 9th, 12th & 15th Surrey RVC (original 1859 units)

 

See this excellent photo from Pal Sepoy of 6th East Surreys in a pre-War camp ..

It also shows some interesting variant tunics, which are discussed here: Early serge frock identification please

 

In this case, the battalion also wore a KRRC-style rifles maltese cross cap badge rather than the East Surrey's star-based design, well seen in Sepoy's photo above.  Here's the badge in detail ...

 

[Update: this is KK 1723.  For 6th East Surreys, Kipling & King also list a blackened version of the standard East Surreys eight-pointed star as KK 1724, but no information on dates each was in use (pp.415-416).]

 

Edited 13 October , 2016 by MBrockway

[MBrockway]

In another topic Pal Drew-1918 has just posted these excellent examples of the blackened rifles style regimental buttons of the 9th (County of London) Battalion, London Regiment (Queen Victoria's Rifles)

 

Flat button ...

Ball button:

 

Seen on a QVR black patrol style jacket with a label dated 1935.

 

Full details here

 

These examples were part of a mixed lot of Rifle Volunteer buttons sold at DNW earlier this year.  The lot was described as all pre-1881, so outside our period and the buttons were not explicitly described as QVR nor 1st Middlesex RVC, but the QVR's St George and Dragon design is very well shown:

© Dix Noonan Webb - Lot 750, 09-10 May 2018

 

 

Marvellous clear pictures of these rare rifles buttons.

 

Mark

 

 

Edited 21 August , 2023 by MBrockway
Broken image links restored. Also link to Noonan's auction lot archive