Fireman Jesse White, Mercantile Marine

[Andy Wade]

I reckon it's pretty likely now that Jesse White is buried in a nearby cemetery with no marker or a marker that has since disappeared.

A couple of points come to mind:

1. Who would have paid for a headstone if the CWGC weren't aware about his burial on land to pick up the tab. They thought he was lost at sea.

2. Would he have started off with a wooden cross which didn't get replaced because the connection between him and CWGC wasn't recognised. The cross may have had his name inscribed but this has been lost later.

3. If the family took his body for burial at home wouldn't this have been recorded by the CWGC, as Louise has pointed out, they filled in a NoK report because family details are recorded, but CWGC think he's buried at sea so I can't see that he's buried near to his home.

4. It's Occam's Razor that leads me to think that he was just buried locally and the details weren't given to CWGC and so the connection was never made and he's been lost in the mists of time because an essentially untended grave eventually ends up that way.

[Myrtle]

Andy

If Jesse White was buried in one of the Pembrokeshire Cemeteries there would be reference of the burial in the cemetery records.

The extracts that you have posted are the ones that I mentioned earlier in the thread as being unclear. I have not seen a time for the arrival of the USS Parker in port. Isn't there another possibility that Harry Lund may have died between the time of the arrival of the Parker in Port and his arriving at the hospital on the 27th February. This would then lead to a death certificate being issued at the hospital. There are many possible permutations to consider and that's why it is important to find out the facts!

Myrtle

[Andy Wade]

Andy

If Jesse White was buried in one of the Pembrokeshire Cemeteries there would be reference of the burial in the cemetery records.

Agreed. But we haven't seen them yet, we really need to take a look at them.

The extracts that you have posted are the ones that I mentioned earlier in the thread as being unclear. I have not seen a time for the arrival of the USS Parker in port. Isn't there another possibility that Harry Lund may have died between the time of the arrival of the Parker in Port and his arriving at the hospital on the 27th February. This would then lead to a death certificate being issued at the hospital. There are many possible permutations to consider and that's why it is important to find out the facts!

Myrtle

Only you seem to think they're unclear. I say they are clear because the second example I posted shows a clarification of nine survivors, one of whom was a dead body. There's only one clarification signal and not three as you previously said. There is a picture of the same page twice and the third is a typed transcript of that handwritten signal. If we're getting down to personal opinions as to the 'eventual' clarity of the signals, then we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Do you now think that the dead body that the hospital received is possibly that of Harry Lund? How so?

Harry Lund died on the 27th February, it's on his grave - or is that now in question? The date on the signals is given as 26th February. The time of the signals are not stated in the boxes provided on the forms, but the first one asking for confirmation has 2215 right at the end. If that's the time (if not, what is it?) then it shows the signal which was sent after they were taken to the hospital, and 18 hours and 18 minutes after the torpedo struck the Glenart Castle. Not an unreasonable time for someone to be gathering paperwork together and querying an anomaly in the original signal and asking for a conformation of the correct numbers.

We've seen reports of 16 hours from the sinking, to the USS Parker arriving in port at 8.00 pm (20.00 hrs). I'm not going to go looking for them again, they're in the Harry Lund thread.

Edited 25 October , 2010 by Andy Wade

[Verrico2009]

I have not seen a time for the arrival of the USS Parker in port.

8pm - as posted on the Harry Lund thread: USS Parker.

[headgardener]

It's Occam's Razor that leads me to think that he was just buried locally and the details weren't given to CWGC and so the connection was never made and he's been lost in the mists of time because an essentially untended grave eventually ends up that way.

Hi Andy,

I've just opened a thread asking for a look-up for local newspapers from Southampton. I reckon that'll give us the best chance of tracking down what happened to Jesse's body.

Sorry to mix metaphors, but Occam's razor can be a double-edged sword. No option is without assumptions, and personally I'd say that the option of him being buried at sea after having been certified dead at the hospital is a very good explanation for his name appearing on the Tower Hill memorial.

I'd say that it's perfectly possible, in which case a death notice would be the only record that might exist.

[Myrtle]

Louise

Thank you for posting the relevant documentation regarding the arrival of the Parker. I thought that if it was somewhere in the very long Harry Lund thread, you would be able to find it! This information indicates that Harry Lund did arrive ashore,on the 26th February, alive.

What happened to Jesse White, however remains unclear.

Andy

It seems to me that there are three messages altogether regarding the number of survivors. Those stamped 327, 328 and 329. These include the ones that request clarification regarding the variation in messages.

Myrtle

[Andy Wade]

Did you look at #326 then? Because it should be clear enough that Jesse White was landed onshore as the only body along with the unconscious man, whom we know to be Harry Lund. It's dated 26th February.

#327 is a question from the Capt Supt on shore to USS Parker asking for clarification on numbers, but confirming that they were all taken to the hospital. The two messages #328 and #329 are from USS Parker answering that, and give slightly different versions of the same thing, the second message correcting that White died after being picked up alive. There's no ambiguity in their response except maybe in the first message #328. They both give figures totalling eight living and one dead. And all reached shore and the hospital. What happened to Jesse after that remains to be seen. If anything is unclear in all this, it's just the question of what they did with his body after he reached hospital.

That Jesse White definitely reached shore was clear to those who had been following the Harry Lund thread closely and it is the reason I raised this thread, I am perfectly happy to be proven wrong about him having a land burial if it's proven to be the case that they took him back out to sea. But had I not raised it, we wouldn't be looking into his case. It's worth it for that alone.

[Verrico2009]

It seems to me that there are three messages altogether regarding the number of survivors. Those stamped 327, 328 and 329. These include the ones that request clarification regarding the variation in messages.

I've been back over it now, Myrtle and what I see is as follows (all pages from the Glenart Castle inquiry set):-

1. USS Parker arrives at Milford Haven at 8pm on 26 February following the sinking at approximately 4am. Completed ID Form SA handed over.

2. Page 330: the start of the form that is in question (ID Form SA) and it's the back of page 332 that's been completed incorrectly (box 40 "what became of the passengers and crew after abandoning ship?", right at the bottom of the page): "Ten Nine were picked up by the USS PARKER...Nine Eight living and one dead died [on] board. See signal.

3. Page 326: brief typed summary from the Parker dated 26 February, naming Jesse as the dead man and mentioning one "unconscious" one.

4. Page 327: 22.15 on 26 February - signal sent to USS Parker "Re Glenart Castle ID Form SA reports that you picked up 9 survivors and one dead body but the hospital's got 8 survivors and one dead body" (indicates Harry was still alive at this point, BTW)

5. Page 328: [no time noted] on 26 February - USS Parker responds "8 survivors and one dead body"

6. Page 329 (which I copied twice as I didn't get the whole image in but didn't delete the first shot - extra one now removed from set): [no time noted but clearly referring to the previous message and still dated 26 February] "Correction: form wrong - 9 survivors but one died after being taken on board"

And there's a faint typed note on the report itself that Jesse was the unfortunate man.

So I don't have any doubt in my mind that Jesse's body was landed. To be honest, I was never looking for Jesse, except to eliminate him: it was all about Harry and I couldn't believe my luck that the papers are held at Kew. I can see one page I definitely need to go back for, but it's part of the Faon's report so not relevant here. The only other thing I didn't look at is a set a "letters to the Spanish government" in relation to the sinking (or similar - couldn't see there was going to be much relevance there) but I'll get those out as well to see if they provide any of the missing pages.

[Verrico2009]

If Jesse White was buried in one of the Pembrokeshire Cemeteries there would be reference of the burial in the cemetery records.

Yup - done some ringing round and the records should be accessible - it just has to be a personal visit.

The extracts that you have posted are the ones that I mentioned earlier in the thread as being unclear. Isn't there another possibility that Harry Lund may have died between the time of the arrival of the Parker in Port and his arriving at the hospital on the 27th February. This would then lead to a death certificate being issued at the hospital. There are many possible permutations to consider and that's why it is important to find out the facts!

Hopefully my post above puts some sort of order into events. And with the Parker arriving at 8pm I think it's clear Harry survived at least for a further few hours, ruling him out as the DOA (who is clearly named as Jesse).

But, as Andy says - Jesse certainly deserved his own thread.

Headgardener - I understand it's possible his body was taken back out to sea and buried but is it probable? It doesn't seem it would have been the Parker, having deposited him at the hospital (you seem to be in agreement that far, at least). What's the precedent for it?

[headgardener]

Headgardener - I understand it's possible his body was taken back out to sea and buried but is it probable? It doesn't seem it would have been the Parker, having deposited him at the hospital (you seem to be in agreement that far, at least). What's the precedent for it?

There's nothing I disagree with on the thrust of this thread; I'm certain that Jesse White was landed and delivered to the hospital dead. I certainly think Andy's done the right thing in starting this thread. The fact that he's on a memorial MAY simply mean that his grave is impossible to locate (by the standards of the day) or deemed unmaintainable.

Jesse seems to have been identified at an early stage, so I suspect that his body would have been held in a mortuary until receiving instruction from his next-of-kin. He would have either been buried locally, brought back to Soton for burial, or buried at sea. On balance I'd say that the likeliest option would be burial locally. We can't ignore the fact that he's on the Tower Hill memorial and that his family appear to have known of this fact; burial at sea, or cremation, are the likely possibilities which would explain this. That's not to say that a mistake is impossible.

The precedent would be that burial at sea was uncommon but it did occur. It might have been something that he had specifically requested. He might also have been cremated and his ashes scattered at sea (unlikely, but possible - hard to say without knowing his religion, if any).

No-one's commented on the fact that Mercantile Marine men were civilians, and it's also possible that there was some initial confusion regarding his entitlement to IWGC recognition. It's possible that Jesse's grave had been 'lost' (or forgotten) by the time the Tower Hill memorial was in the planning stages; maybe his family were never able to visit his grave and had lost any official notification of the exact location.

All will be revealed, I suspect.......

[chrisharley9]

While all of you ladies & gentlemen do your surmising I have got a grave search underway at Southampton

[headgardener]

While all of you ladies & gentlemen do your surmising.........

I think the correct term is "naval-gazing" (sic)...........

[Myrtle]

Did you look at #326 then? Because it should be clear enough that Jesse White was landed onshore as the only body along with the unconscious man, whom we know to be Harry Lund. It's dated 26th February.

I did look at #326 and although it is not the page that shows that Jesse White's body was taken ashore, I can see from Louise's organised list (thank you Louise) that it would appear that the body that was taken on land was that of Jesse White.

Myrtle

[Andy Wade]

You have to read them all in context with each other in order to be able to follow the events of the day.

While all of you ladies & gentlemen do your surmising I have got a grave search underway at Southampton

Thank you Chris, that's marvellous.

[Verrico2009]

I can see from Louise's organised list (thank you Louise) that it would appear that the body that was taken on land was that of Jesse White.

You're welcome, Myrtle. Glad it's helped you understand why Andy and I have remained convinced that Jesse's body came ashore. Which still leaves your original query unanswered as to why he should appear on a memorial for those with no known grave.

I will leave it to the experts to prove Jesse's body was taken back out to sea/his ashes scattered there. And others are looking at the possibility of burial, either at Pembroke Dock or Southampton. Which brings me back to the possibility he was cremated and his ashes scattered on land/kept in an urn/buried. The Cremation Act of 1902 (Wiki) put strict limits on where crematoria could be built, along with other regulations. One of the calls I made yesterday was to Pembroke council, which has responsibility for the cemetery. I was informed that although the records are publicly available at the crematorium, it hadn't been built then. So I don't think we'll find records for Jesse at Pembroke in that respect. But we might be able to pin him down through the coroner's daily reports for the period which the council do hold, so the hounds are out! It may be worth finding out whether Southampton had a crematorium in 1918.

Headgardener's point about Jesse's status deriving from the merchant navy is also interesting. Perhaps the family took the opportunity of having him formally recognised on the memorial, not having been granted an IWGC headstone.

Thank you Chris, that's marvellous.

Yes, great stuff - thanks, Chris.

[Edited to add that I've just spoken to the staff at Southampton crematorium, who have very helpfully confirmed that the crematorium didn't exist there in 1918. Earliest records are 1932.]

[chrisharley9]

Good news. His grave has been found at Southampton. Thanks to Andy for bringing him to my attention. Its these little snippets of info that get the lads graves found. More info later

Chris

[Verrico2009]

Well done, that man!

Yesterday I spoke to a lovely gentleman at the MoD who knows all about Pembroke Dock Military Cemetery and he was prepared to join in the hunt. There are still some aspects relating to Harry Lund that I want to follow up anyway.

Look forward to a full update. Is he entitled to a CWGC headstone?

[Bardess]

That's brilliant! Well done Chris

[Andy Wade]

Well done Chris!

I for one am very humbled at this news. It's a first for me to have been a small part of the search and eventual discovery of a 'lost' man. Now the CWGC will have a grave location they can direct people towards.

RIP Jesse White.

Hopefully one day we'll be able to see a picture of the gravestone (if it's still in existence) and possibly even a CWGC stone placed there - assuming this is appropriate.

I'd like to say a big thank you to everyone who has taken part in this, there's been some good reasoned discussion about the likelihood of him even having a grave, but we only found him because of the evidence presented and discussed on here along with Chris's perseverence.

I'll put a freshly ironed pound note behind the bar in Skindles to get the drinks and nibbles in.

[chrisharley9]

Well I for one am chuffed to rocks; another lad found & will get his due recognition. Im just awaiting the final confirmation from my Southampton contact who is going out to photo the grave. If the grave is unmarked in due course he should get a CWGC headstone. If there is a headstone then it is up to CWGC to decide if it is a fitting headstone.

If anybody wants to go for a real beer you will find me in March Royal British Legion most weekends. Im the one who looks like he has lost the plot

Chris

[chrisharley9]

Well done, that man!

Yesterday I spoke to a lovely gentleman at the MoD who knows all about Pembroke Dock Military Cemetery and he was prepared to join in the hunt. There are still some aspects relating to Harry Lund that I want to follow up anyway.

Look forward to a full update. Is he entitled to a CWGC headstone?

You couldnt find out who has the burial register for the cemetery please as it may give us some more non commemorateds. Now you know how my mind works.

[chrisharley9]

His grave is at Southampton Old Cemetery Grave N 147 295 sadly unmarked. All has been reported to CWGC

My thanks to Dave Jacobs of the Friends Of Southampton Old Cemetery who has added the following detail

The burials in this grave are:

13 May 1916 Lionel Clifton White, 3 months, from 4 Chapel Rd

5 March 1918 Jesse White, 25 yrs, from 4 Chapel Rd

6 March 1939 William Henry White, 51 yrs, from 22 Melbourne St

16 Jan 1945 Joyce Hope Wood, 27 yrs, from 16 Spring Close

A bit of checking shows that Jesse married Helena Mary Penny in the Dec 1914 quarter.

I find two children, Lionel b March Q 1916 and Joyce b Sept Q 1917.

The grave was first used for Jesse's 3 month old son, and he himself followed.

William is Jesse's brother (from the 1901 census), and Joyce Wood appears to be Jesse's daughter.

Helena White married again in 1924 to Alfred Dear.

[Myrtle]

Excellent news. Well done Chris.

Interesting that CWGC have Jesse's age as 28 years.

Myrtle

[Verrico2009]

Round of applause for Dave and Chris

It seems it was intended to be the family grave before Jesse's death. Touching to know the young son is in there, not to mention surprising as it's quite an extraordinary length to go to in those days, I would have thought (my understanding in my own family is that the infant mortalities either went into communal graves or were conveniently buried in any available coffin and there was no time for sentimentality" - which is going to be interesting for future DNA retrievals!) - Jesse's wife had more than her share of tragedy to deal with and hopefully she found happiness with her second husband.

I had already earmarked some papers at TNA in connection with the Tower Hill Memorial for my next visit (New Year) so will still have a look through them in due course to see if there's anything pertaining to Jesse in there.

[Edit - yes, Chris: quite understand! As you know, PM sent.]

[Phil Evans]

Well done Chris and Dave.

Phil