Terry Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 We have had several threads dealing with awards of the Victoria Cross recently, and at the risk of stirring up a hornet's nest, could it be said that it was "easier" for an officer to win the VC than an enlisted man? Now, I should state up front that as a reservist I served first as a gunner and then bombardier; later I was commissioned, and am very proud of my Queen's Commission scroll. Also, it is obvious that junior officers, by virtue of being what they are, would be expected to display the appropriate leadership virtues and quite possibly bravery. However, I often wonder how many times Capt. Farnsworth-Jones was observed by the CO doing some brave deed while poor bloody L/Cpl.Bloggins performed similar courageous acts but was overlooked. It has always struck me as odd that in World War Two, exactly one private soldier in the Canadian Army earned the VC - "Smokey" Smith of the Seaforths in Italy. Overall, more junior officers (lieutenant-captain level) have won the VC than private soldiers. The Victoria Cross certainly is a "democratic" decoration but... Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 A hard call this one!I would have thought it was harder for an Officer to have won the Cross,if anything,although @ the sharp end,he would still have needed the requisite witnesses to his act & live long enough to carry out the act in the first place,his responsibility, would have primarily been, to ensure those under him were led as safely & directly to their objective as possible,with the minimum number of losses,he would therefore have had the responsibility of directing others of lower rank to tasks that might have a better chance of a Gallantry award,I expect the figures destroy this argument but its a chance to play "Devils Advocate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinkidi Posted 12 June , 2004 Share Posted 12 June , 2004 G'day An observation from reading a very small "population" of VC citations: When all officers or all Officers & NCO's were lost, he gathered the remainder.... Hard to draw conclusions, but it might be argued that Officers were expected to do things the others were not. From the opposite tack, though, cannot understand why Simpson [The man with the donkey] didn't get recognition on Gallipoli. ooRoo Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedrew Posted 13 June , 2004 Share Posted 13 June , 2004 Terry, Simply because he was an officer, the officer was watched for by his CO to make sure he was marshalling and inspiring his troops correctly, was in the right place etc. He was watched by his men for signals to advance (there's apparently a lot of noise going on) and so, more eyes are upon him than the simple "grunt" (unfortunately, the same is true that his ENEMIES have their eyes AND SIGHTS on him as well). Any act of bravery performed by an officer, therefore, would be witnessed by more people. Whether it is easier for an officer to be awarded a VC or not is a hard question, as suggested. An officer was EXPECTED to be braver. Some entered battle and led their men waving their swagger sticks, with their sidearms holstered the whole time. dinkidi, I searched (in vain) for the VC recommendation for James Simpson Kirkpatrick in the Public Record Office in Kew (and also for the VC recommendation for Roderic Stanley Dallas), but the file is STILL sealed. The politics involved in certain high ranking officers "knocking back" a recommendation for the VC and awarding a MC or other must be very sensitive indeed. A very difficult decision obviously, especially if a man gave his life in the action. Steve Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinkidi Posted 13 June , 2004 Share Posted 13 June , 2004 Steve Hope you didn't get Simpson mixed with the Late Great Slim Dusty. Sorry! Its just that the names are fairly similiar, and I can't resist being a smartarse! Who was Dallas? ooRoo Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eviltaxman Posted 13 June , 2004 Share Posted 13 June , 2004 This is from the Chapter One site (or what ever it's called these day?!?!? Or go to VC by rank Able Seaman 6 awards Acting Assistant Commissary 1 award Assistant Surgeon 7 awards Bandsman 1 award Battery Sergeant-Major 1 award Boatswain 1 award Boatswain Third Class 1 award Boatswain's Mate 3 awards Bombardier 5 awards Boy, First Class 1 award T/Brigadier General 2 awards A/Brigadier 1 award Bugler 2 awards Captain 108 awards Captain of the After Guard 1 award Captain of the Forecastle 1 award Captain of the Foretop 1 award Captain of the Mast 1 award A/Captain 21 awards T/Captain 20 awards Chief Petty Officer 1 award Colonel 2 awards Colour-Sergeant 11 awards Commander 10 awards T/Commander 1 award Company Havildar-Major 1 award A/Company Quartermaster-Sergeant 1 award Company Sergeant-Major 13 awards A/Company Sergeant-Major 1 award Conductor 1 award Cornet 1 award Corporal 69 awards A/Corporal 10 awards T/Corporal 3 awards Deputy Assistant Commissary of Ordnance 1 award Driver 5 awards Drummer 7 awards Ensign 4 awards Farrier 2 awards Farrier-Major 1 award Flight Lieutenant 5 awards A/Flight Lieutenant 1 award Flight Sergeant 2 awards A/Flight Sergeant 1 award Flight Sub-Lieutenant 1 award Flying Officer 5 awards Fusilier 2 awards Guardsman 1 award Gunner 11 awards Gunner and Driver 1 award Havildar 3 awards Hon. Captain 1 award Hospital Apprentice 1 award Jemadar 3 awards Lance-Corporal 54 awards A/Lance-Corporal 3 awards Lance-Dafadar 1 award Lance-Naik 2 awards Lance-Sergeant 14 awards Leading Seaman 2 awards A/Leading Seaman 2 awards Lieutenant 207 awards Lieutenant Colonel 13 awards A/Lieutenant Colonel 13 awards Bt/Lieutenant Colonel 3 awards T/Lieutenant Colonel 18 awards A/Lieutenant 1 award T/Lieutenant 16 awards Lieutenant-Commander 12 awards Major 28 awards A/Major 8 awards Bt/Major 5 awards T/Major 9 awards Mate 1 award Midshipman 6 awards Mr. 4 awards Naik 5 awards A/Naik 2 awards Ordinary Seaman 2 awards Pensioned Sergeant 1 award Petty Officer 3 awards Pilot Officer 1 award Piper 3 awards Private 250 awards Provisional Lance-Corporal 1 award Quartermaster 1 award Quartermaster-Sergeant 2 awards Ressaidar 1 award Reverend 3 awards Rifleman 11 awards Rough-Rider 1 award Sapper 3 awards Seaman 6 awards Second Lieutenant 48 awards T/Second Lieutenant 16 awards Sepoy 7 awards Sergeant 127 awards A/Sergeant 7 awards Sergeant-Major 10 awards Shoeing Smith 1 award Skipper 2 awards Squadron Commander 1 award Squadron Leader 4 awards A/Squadron Leader 1 award Stoker 1 award Subadar 2 awards A/Subadar 2 awards Sub-Lieutenant 1 award Surgeon 8 awards Surgeon Captain 3 awards Surgeon Major 3 awards Troop Sergeant-Major 4 awards Trooper 7 awards Trumpeter 1 award Warrant Officer II 4 awards Wing Commander 4 awards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 13 June , 2004 Share Posted 13 June , 2004 the Late Great Slim Dusty. , and I can't resist being a smartarse! A Pub with no Beer!!! Great single! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedrew Posted 13 June , 2004 Share Posted 13 June , 2004 Pat, I just posted a long explanation, and it disappeared into the ehter, so I'll make this one short. The man known by many as "Simpson" or "The man with the donkey" of Gallipoli fame was born James Simpson Kirkpatrick, and is NO relation to Slim. (for those who don't know, he returned REPEATEDLY under extremely heavy fire to retrieve wounded soldiers from the gullies of Gallipoli armed only with a donkey). Major Roderic Stanley Dallas, DSO, DSC and Bar, Croix de Guerre, MID was Australia's highest scoring fighter pilot (despite what the record book show). He was loved by all whoever knew him. Born in Queensland. KIA on 1/6/18 whilst successfully luring three fighters off a rookie's tail. Buried in Pernes Cemetery, France. A courageous and incredibly skilled pilot. One of the first to fly the Sopwith Triplane and MAY have been the first to score a victory in the prototype of that plane. He failed to record flights and victories as he was forbidden to fly (as he was a Squadron Commander), and some of the "possible victories" known as "Out Of Control" (the pilot was too busy to see the results of his previous combat as he was engaged again, but believed it would have been impossible for the hostile pilot to extricate himself from the situation he was in before impacting with the earth) have been investigated and found to have a crashed enemy aircraft. It is believed he scored more than 50 victories. You can go to "The Aerodrome" to read more on him...worth it. Steve Drew Steve Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinkidi Posted 13 June , 2004 Share Posted 13 June , 2004 Thanks for that Steve, will follow up on Major Dallas. Wots in a name she sez? Thought Simpson was Johnny not Jimmy. Know that Slim was David Kirkpatrick, and think "Pub" was the first Aussie single to top the British Charts. ooRoo Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedrew Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 Pat, Simpson COULD be John, not James...but he WAS born J Simpson Kirkpatrick. Do chase up Major Dallas...a fine Australian, a great Commander of men. Steve Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedrew Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 Pat, You were right...he was John Simpson Kirkpatrick, born on 6 July 1892 at Shields, County Durham, England. From the Australian War Memorial Site: Private Simpson (Kirkpatrick) landed on Gallipoli with the covering force at dawn on 25 April 1915 and quickly befriended a donkey (called variously Abdul or Murphy but usually Duffy) to carry leg wound casualties to the dressing station. Day and night he worked cheerfully and unconcernedly amid fierce shrapnel and rifle-fire carrying the wounded from the head of Monash valley down Shrapnel gully to the beach. So valued was his work that he was allowed to operate separately, camping with his donkey at the Indian mulecamp. He was known to his fellow diggers as Murphy, Scotty, Simmie or simply the bloke with the donk. His name immediately became a byword for courage: the Indian troops called him Bahadur - bravest of the brave. His inspirational work and good fortune, however, were to be short lived. On 19 May he was shot through the heart in Monash valley and buried on the beach at Hell Spit. He was mentioned in orders of the day and in dispatches and though recommended he received no bravery award. Steve Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 I think you need to limit the question, otherwise you're not comparing like with like - I would suggest that, for instance, the proportion of officers VCs in RNAS/RFC/RAF/FAA will be very high simply because so many aircrew were of commissioned rank. How about sticking to WW1 infantry? A very unscientific sample (i.e. the nearest book to hand) gives figures of Seaforth Highlanders, 7 VCs of which 1 was to an officer (a Lt); Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders, 3 of which 1 was to an officer (a Lt Col). Make what you will of that. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dinkidi Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 Jock Good Idea, lets get specific! Have just analysed the records of The Manangatang ,Victoria , VC winners Army: Officers 0 NCO's 0 O/Ranks 0 Navy: Officers 0 NCO's 0 O/Ranks 0 Air Force: Officers 0 NCO's 0 O/Ranks 0 Now if that doesn't PROVE the egalitarianism of the Australian Forces ! Then again it might just say something more about Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics Of course, Manangatang is a real place. Check it out on the Hyde Park Wall. ooRoo Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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