Lt Robert Jacomb Norris Dale, 9/Manchesters

[rugbyremembers]

Robert Dale died in Jan 1918 with an RFC balloon section in Italy.

He was commissioned into the 9/Mancs in June 1915.

I am very keen to find out about his time with the Manchesters. In theory he should have joined them at Gallipoli then spent 1916 in Egypt.

They went to France in march 1917 and were at 3rd Ypres by Aug 1917.

Anyone who can place him precisely at any of these engagements? Or tell me when he transferred to the RFC? Very little on his file at Kew.

Many thanks

[bantamforgot]

Have you tried the "Ashton pals" site ,ref. the 9th. manchesters.?

Colin.

[rugbyremembers]

Yes. In fact my thorough scanning of the excellent Ashton pals site is what began to concern me. In the copious reports from Gallipoli, including mentions of officers, Dale is not once mentioned. It's not as if they had that many officers!

I also have a call out through the Manchester.org website.

All hands to the deck!

Stephen

[John_Hartley]

Stephen

The lack of mention on Linda's website makes me wonder if your man's commission was to the 2/9th Battalion, rather than the 1/9th.

John

[rugbyremembers]

The thought has crossed my mind too. I understand that the 2/9th was a reserve battalion which did not go overseas, but presumably 'fed' activer service Bns with new drafts as required.

I am hoping that someone more knowledgeable and better informed than me will confirm one way or another.

Stephen

[John_Hartley]

2/9th certainly acted as a feeder in its early months and went on active service on its own account in March 1917.It suffered very heavily in its first major action on 9 October. The two 9th Battalions were merged in March 1918 and saw out the rest of the war simply as the 9th Battalion.

Does his service file have anything by way of useful dates?

John

[rugbyremembers]

From my notes from a year ago, the service file is very thin and there is little wrt dates. It may be worth a second Kew visit, as I may be able to 'read clues' slightly better now. The project was young and in truth, a book was not envisaged. But you will note that his entry on the wbsite is briefer than most, which reflects the absence of fact.

Stephen

[Guest]

I am interested in knowing about Robert Jacomb Norris DALE, of the 33rd Balloon Section.  

 

Lt DALE married Irene MAWER just a few months before his death - and it is this relationship which I would like to find out about.  Irene Mawer went on to become an influential teacher of mime and drama and I hope to publish her life story.

 

I am especially interested to see any photos of DALE or MAWER.

 

I am trying to contact the people involved in the Rugby Memorial for players who were killed in action in WWI, but am having no luck as yet.

 

 

[helpjpl]

1.  Casualty Card

Balloon attacked by Enemy machine. Was shot whilst in the basket and was unable to get out:

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/dale-r.j.n.-robert-jacomb-norris

 

2.  Casualty Form:

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/4883

 

3. Flight magazine 28 February 1918:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1918/1918%20-%200237.html

 

JP

 

[davidbohl]

There are a few pages on him in Steve Cooper's Book The Final Whistle - The Great War in Fifteen Players

 

Dave

[helpjpl]

Robert Jacomb Norris Dale married Irene Rose Mawer on 01 March 1917 (courtesy of ancestry):

 

 

 

2.  Medal Index Card (courtesy of ancestry):

 

 

JP

Edited 10 September , 2019 by helpjpl
MIC

[Guest]

Hello Helpjpl. Apologies, I am having trouble finding my way around this site (I’m using a ‘phone). I just wanted to say thank you for posting the info. I do already have it, but I appreciate that you went to the effort. I am drawing a blank with researching anything more than the bare details of Irene Mawer/Perugini - it is almost as if she never existed.  She died in a village called Blewbury in 1962 and while people remember her friend (Ruby Ginner) no-one remembers Irene!  Thanks again for your interest.  

Edited 8 October , 2019 by Guest

[corisande]

[PRC]

On the 1962 Probate Calendar ahe appears as Perugini - no cross reference to Mawer.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Mark1959]

It would appear Dale and Mawer had known each other for some time and Dale was a amateur performer himself. Buckingham Express 11/5/1912, Courtesy of BNA

He wrote a book "Limited Liability for Partners" and gave lectures on it pre-war. Newspaper reports

Edited 8 October , 2019 by Mark1959

[helpjpl]

1.  Irene Rose Mawer

In addition to the marriage certificate posted in #11, the following records can be viewed on Ancestry:

Baptism

1901 Census 

1911 Census

Marriage Index - to author Mark Edward Perugini

1939 England and Wales Register - which gives her DOB

London Electoral Registers

England & Wales National Probate Calendar - already posted by PRC

 

2.  Robert Jacomb Norris Dale

Record of Service of Solicitors and Articled Clerks with His Majesty's Forces 1914-1919;

https://cms.lawgazette.co.uk/Uploads/2014/06/17/c/y/l/recordofserviceo00soli.pdf

 

Edit.  Educated at Haileybury College 1900-1902:

http://www.hertsatwar.co.uk/biographies/984232/robert-jacomb-norris-dale

 

JP

Edited 8 October , 2019 by helpjpl
Educated at Haileybury College

[PJS]

Lt Robert Jacomb Norris Dale was mentioned a few times in the 1/9th Manchesters war diary:

 

Oct 26, 1915 (Gallipoli):
11 Officers arrive from England from 2/9th Bn. Manch R. Owing to the fact that they are junior to two officers of the 1/9th Batt who are still here and are still 2nd Lieuts. Some of these new officers have to relinquish temporary rank and become 2nd Lieuts.

2nd Lieuts. BURY, W. B., NAYLOR S., DEARNALEY I., BRISTER J. F., NEIDHAM O.S., FIELDING P. P., HAMPSON F. C., BEARD F., DALE R. J. N., TOMMIS, J. R. GRAY A.

Sep 15, 1916 (Egypt):
Capt. F. WOODHOUSE proceeded to BASE en route for England. 2/Lieut. A. N. LECKLER and 2/Lieut. R. J. N. DALE attached on probation to R.F.C. ABOUKIR for instruction in aviation.

 

Nov 17, 1916 (Egypt):
Rifle and Lewis Gun practice from Trenches. 2/Lt. F. BEARD rejoins from furlough to England. 2/Lt. DALE, R. J. N. reposted to Battalion from Royal Flying Corps, (admitted Hospital from R.F.C.).

 

Dec 12th (Egypt):
“C” Company relieved “B” Company in Defense Line. “B” Company moved into local reserve at Battalion H.Q. 2/Lt. R. J. N. DALE rejoined from Royal Flying Corps.

 

So, he was commissioned into the 2/9th Battalion Manchester Regiment which was a feeder battalion for the 1/9th. Once he landed in Gallipoli in October 1915 he became a 1/9th Officer. The Manchester forum indicates that he left the 1/9th and joined the RFC sometime around late September 1917.

 

Peter

[Janet Fizz C]

Thank you very much to everyone who has gone to the trouble of furnishing this information about Robert Dale. I have now traced and am in contact with a descendant of his widow, Irene Rose Mawer, and her second husband, Mark Edward Perugini. Sadly, I don’t think I will ever know how Irene and Robert Dale met. Thank you again for your interest. 

[Janet Fizz C]

On 10/09/2019 at 17:08, helpjpl said:

1.  Casualty Card

Balloon attacked by Enemy machine. Was shot whilst in the basket and was unable to get out:

http://www.rafmuseumstoryvault.org.uk/archive/dale-r.j.n.-robert-jacomb-norris

 

2.  Casualty Form:

https://www.casualtyforms.org/form/4883

 

3. Flight magazine 28 February 1918:

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1918/1918%20-%200237.html

 

JP

 

 

[Janet Fizz C]

Hello

thank you for the info on Robert Dale.  I have now managed to be in contact with a distant relative of his widow, Irene Rose Mawer.  However, we feel that it is unlikely that we shall ever know how Irene and Robert met.  Thank you again.  Janet

[Janet Fizz C]

On 10/09/2019 at 17:19, davidbohl said:

There are a few pages on him in Steve Cooper's Book The Final Whistle - The Great War in Fifteen Players

 

Dave

Hi Dave

thanks for the reply.  I have managed to trace a distant relative of Robert Dale’s widow, however, we don’t think we shall ever know how the pair met.  Thank you again for your interest.  Janet

On 08/10/2019 at 18:00, PRC said:

On the 1962 Probate Calendar ahe appears as Perugini - no cross reference to Mawer.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar#calendar

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Hello Peter

thank you for the reply.  I have managed to trace a relative of the widow (Irene Rose Mawer) but we don’t think we shall ever know how the pair met.  Thanks again.  Janet.

[Janet Fizz C]

On 08/10/2019 at 18:12, Mark1959 said:

It would appear Dale and Mawer had known each other for some time and Dale was a amateur performer himself. Buckingham Express 11/5/1912, Courtesy of BNA

He wrote a book "Limited Liability for Partners" and gave lectures on it pre-war. Newspaper reports

Hello Mark

thank you for your reply.  I had already found the info about the play - but I am grateful to you for going to the trouble of researching Irene Mawer.  It is this tantilising snippet of information which makes me ask a.) is it the same Robert Dale? b.) Is this where they met?  or C.)  Did they know each other before this play?

I didn’t know he had written a book, but I did know he had a legal background, so that does fit (It sounds a fascinating subject - I can’t wait to read it...or perhaps not!). I am glad I don’t need to read it as Irene Mawer, together with her second husband, went on to write at least 12 books between them.  That’s enough for me to be going on with!  Thank you again for your help.  Janet

[Janet Fizz C]

On 08/10/2019 at 18:14, helpjpl said:

1.  Irene Rose Mawer

In addition to the marriage certificate posted in #11, the following records can be viewed on Ancestry:

Baptism

1901 Census 

1911 Census

Marriage Index - to author Mark Edward Perugini

1939 England and Wales Register - which gives her DOB

London Electoral Registers

England & Wales National Probate Calendar - already posted by PRC

 

2.  Robert Jacomb Norris Dale

Record of Service of Solicitors and Articled Clerks with His Majesty's Forces 1914-1919;

https://cms.lawgazette.co.uk/Uploads/2014/06/17/c/y/l/recordofserviceo00soli.pdf

 

Edit.  Educated at Haileybury College 1900-1902:

http://www.hertsatwar.co.uk/biographies/984232/robert-jacomb-norris-dale

 

JP

Hello Helpjpl

thanks for this info.  I hadn’t come across the item from the Law Gazette before.  And having had a look at the Haileybury College record, they haven’t yet recorded his medals.  I will have to let them know about it - unless, someone else manages to find a moment to do it.  Currently, all my energies are focussed on Irene Rose Mawer.  I have managed to contact a relative, but we don’t think we shall ever know exactly how and when Irene and Robert Dale met.  We think they knew each other in 1912, but did they meet then, or before?  I will never know.  Thanks again for your interest.  Janet

[Janet Fizz C]

On 08/10/2019 at 21:36, PJS said:

Lt Robert Jacomb Norris Dale was mentioned a few times in the 1/9th Manchesters war diary:

 

Oct 26, 1915 (Gallipoli):
11 Officers arrive from England from 2/9th Bn. Manch R. Owing to the fact that they are junior to two officers of the 1/9th Batt who are still here and are still 2nd Lieuts. Some of these new officers have to relinquish temporary rank and become 2nd Lieuts.

2nd Lieuts. BURY, W. B., NAYLOR S., DEARNALEY I., BRISTER J. F., NEIDHAM O.S., FIELDING P. P., HAMPSON F. C., BEARD F., DALE R. J. N., TOMMIS, J. R. GRAY A.

Sep 15, 1916 (Egypt):
Capt. F. WOODHOUSE proceeded to BASE en route for England. 2/Lieut. A. N. LECKLER and 2/Lieut. R. J. N. DALE attached on probation to R.F.C. ABOUKIR for instruction in aviation.

 

Nov 17, 1916 (Egypt):
Rifle and Lewis Gun practice from Trenches. 2/Lt. F. BEARD rejoins from furlough to England. 2/Lt. DALE, R. J. N. reposted to Battalion from Royal Flying Corps, (admitted Hospital from R.F.C.).

 

Dec 12th (Egypt):
“C” Company relieved “B” Company in Defense Line. “B” Company moved into local reserve at Battalion H.Q. 2/Lt. R. J. N. DALE rejoined from Royal Flying Corps.

 

So, he was commissioned into the 2/9th Battalion Manchester Regiment which was a feeder battalion for the 1/9th. Once he landed in Gallipoli in October 1915 he became a 1/9th Officer. The Manchester forum indicates that he left the 1/9th and joined the RFC sometime around late September 1917.

 

Peter

Hello Peter

thank you very much for the interesting info.  I had an idea that Robert Dale had served in Egypt - so it is good to have that confirmed.  I have seen this reference to the Manchester Regiment before - but I don’t understand the Manchester connection when Dale was a southerner.  I don’t know anything about how the military works - so it is a mystery to me.  Any ideas please?  And how does it all fit into the Artists Rifles?  Did he transfer, or something?

cheers, Janet

[PJS]

23 hours ago, Janet Fizz C said:

Hello Peter

thank you very much for the interesting info.  I had an idea that Robert Dale had served in Egypt - so it is good to have that confirmed.  I have seen this reference to the Manchester Regiment before - but I don’t understand the Manchester connection when Dale was a southerner.  I don’t know anything about how the military works - so it is a mystery to me.  Any ideas please?  And how does it all fit into the Artists Rifles?  Did he transfer, or something?

cheers, Janet

 

It was not at all unusual for an enlisted man to be commissioned into a regiment that he had no prior affiliation with.

 

Private Robert Jacomb Norris Dale, 1656 of the 28th London Regiment (Artists' Rifles) was appointed 2nd Lt. in the (2/9th) Manchester Regiment June 17, 1915. Here on Ancestry.

 

You should take a look at the book mentioned by Dave in post #10 above. It has an excellent write up on Robert Dale with plenty of background. You can see a partial excerpt here. Note reference No 22: "Unpublished memoir by Irene Mawer, NRCD Archive, Guildford University. May be worth a look if you have not already seen it.

 

Peter