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Remembered Today:

43rd Battalion AIF Zonnebeke 1917


Guest Wooster

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towisuk....... #33;

Tom,

I had plotted the 13 trench map references, as I listed in post #20, to trench map 16.d., for 20 of 43rd Battalion soldiers buried "In the Field" between 10th Oct - 20th October, 1917, marked with a 'pin point blue dot'. The blue dot near the centre of the larger red dot, is my man's trench map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4., where he was originally buried with 6 other 43rd Battalion Soldiers (7 in total). The dot positions differ slightly from your flag markers, my attempt is more guesswork, as I had no scale to divide the 16.d square into 10ths, had to draw this bit in myself. But, it was interesting exercise to do, and confirms more to my thinking that this area was a designated burial area to all the Battalions to use at that time, not just representative of the 43rd Battalion AIF.......

post-58063-090465800 1289704269.jpg

Cheers,

Phil.

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Thanks for that Phil.. quick lunch now and off to the ferry at Hull...half an hour ride from home..

regards

Tom

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towisuk....... #33;

Tom,

I had plotted the 13 trench map references, as I listed in post #20, to trench map 16.d., for 20 of 43rd Battalion soldiers buried "In the Field" between 10th Oct - 20th October, 1917, marked with a 'pin point blue dot'. The blue dot near the centre of the larger red dot, is my man's trench map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4., where he was originally buried with 6 other 43rd Battalion Soldiers (7 in total). The dot positions differ slightly from your flag markers, my attempt is more guesswork, as I had no scale to divide the 16.d square into 10ths, had to draw this bit in myself. But, it was interesting exercise to do, and confirms more to my thinking that this area was a designated burial area to all the Battalions to use at that time, not just representative of the 43rd Battalion AIF.......

post-58063-090465800 1289704269.jpg

Cheers,

Phil.

You know the Graves do line up like a cemetery but why a road cuting threw it

and the spacing look like there be hundred more there .If you can get a map from

1919 1920 it may show a cemetery if so the CWGC had to close it and know it's name

not just a designated burial area and move all know Graves it can to a new cemetery

maybe thing can be work out and Graves with no name be givng one

post-92-010898000%201289561131.jpg

That old tree my corresponding to aerial from 22.7.1917 so there was

not much shell to still be there.

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Ok one or two photo's taken on Monday at map location 28.D.16.d

Paddock next to "Seine" that may contain 8 burials (depending on accuracy of map co-ordinate recording)

post-5284-016799700 1289984222.jpg

Paddock

post-5284-061667300 1289984268.jpg

Crossroads west of "Seine"

post-5284-025341800 1289984320.jpg

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Field opposite "Seine" with 4 recorded burials (Tyne Cot in the distance)

post-5284-019349200 1289984442.jpg

There are 4 other recorded burials that Phil posted to the east of "Seine", but unfortunately I managed to overlook these because of the limited time I had to spend in the area...

regards

Tom

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towisuk.......#46, 47 & 48;

Tom,

Exceptional, you were busy. The Menin Gate stops me. So many names, one doesn't really comprehend the huge loss until you actually see it like this, albeit this photo being a small section of the whole lot. All names of the 'missing', 'grave unknown'. I see now the names are grouped into their Battalions. From above photo, I can count 29 Officers, 66 Privates, a total of 95 men for the 43rd Battalion AIF. The Menin Wall Panels even have the Battalions in numerical order. The 7 x 43rd soldiers buried at 28.D.16.d.3.4. Five of them have their names here and I can just make them out, namely Dyer F.E. ; Macgowan E.O.H ; Pengilly W.B. ; Martin W.G ; Kirk F.C.T ; the sixth being Coade F.P. exhumed 23.2.1939 reburied Bedford House Cemetery, Zillebeke and the 7th soldier, Pte F.T Conway, was exhumed (200 yards away) and reburied Tyne Cot 13.12.1920 and so their two names would not appear here on Menin Gate.

I have had a quick look through my book on 43rd, and estimate 99% of the names of the 95 men of the 43rd Battalion listed above, on Panel 27 of the Menin Gate, I can quote a Trench Map reference. As I have said earlier, the record keeping by this Battalion is exceptional, particularly as most of the recording would have been done 'In the Field', under very trying conditions.

Are the names of 35,000 'missing - grave unknown' of Commonwealth Forces that are recorded on the wall of Tyne Cot Cemetery, are their names recorded here as well amongst the 54,700 'missing - grave unknown' at Menin Gate or are they seperate? (This being a question to the Forum)

Thankyou again, Tom, you have done very well, is very much appreciated,

Cheers,

Phil.

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Ok Phil, if you want some more photo's that were taken (including one or two in Tyne Cot), plus a short video I managed to shoot, just e-mail me your address and I'll post them off to you mate.

regards

Tom

p.s. this might help regarding names on memorials Phil...........

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_details.aspx?cemetery=85900&mode=1

http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_details.aspx?cemetery=91800&mode=1

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Tom......#50;

Thanks for those 2 links in post #50, it does answer my question as why E.O.H.Macgowan name not listed at Tyne Cot Memorial, missing - grave unknown.

Menin Gate commemorates those of all Commonwealth Nations, 54,391 casualties, who died in the Ypres Salient, missing - no known grave, except for New Zealand and in the case of United Kingdom, casualties before 16th Aug 1917 (with some exceptions).

Those United Kingdom and New Zealand servicemen who died in the Ypres Salient after 16th Aug 1917, are named on the Memorial Wall at Tyne Cot; 34,934 missing - no known grave.

Those Tyne Cot Memorial names are 'over and above' the names that are recorded on Menin Gate Memorial. I understand it then that Australian names, missing - no known graves of the Ypres Salient are recorded at Menin Gate only, not at Tyne Cot, even though there are 790 unidentified Australian soldier's graves at Tyne Cot.

I'm forwarding email detail straight away, Tom, for further photo's / video. Thanks,

Cheers,

Phil.

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  • 8 months later...

Tom......#51.

A note, to ask a favour - can you post to this forum those "Hill 40" photo's.......

Cheers,

Phil.

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Hi Phil, good to hear from you again mate, I hope this is what you require.....

post-5284-0-42247800-1312725884.jpg

post-5284-0-94841500-1312725943.jpg

post-5284-0-15691900-1312726033.jpg

regards

Tom

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  • 2 weeks later...

Tom.......re blog posting #53,

Thankyou for posting the 2 photo's & map into blog #53, of the view today towards Hill 40 from approximately the "Jump off Line" of the Allied attack launched 3rd October 1917. I have taken the liberty to post your description remarks on the above 2 photo's, and I quote....... "The start line for the attack on Hill 40, (on the skyline, behind the line of tall trees, now with houses built on it), I reckon they started from just the other side of those tall trees, strung out to the left and in a line that crossed the road on the right, that you can see in the second photo. You will also notice that what was the railroad in the map you posted on the forum, ( refer Front Line post #28. 2 Nov 2010 ) and I believe was used in the advance, has been replaced by that tarmac road you see on the right of the photographs. I've posted a map of the positions from where the photo's were taken, so you can see that....... over the trees, over Hill 40, then Tynne Cot is laid before you...."

Cheers Tom,

Phil.

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  • 2 weeks later...

By comparing post 16 Crater Field with post 33 location of bodies. Is it possible for these to be overlayed and see if they match the crater positions just glancing back and forward between pictures it looks like the map positions match the craters. As a serving RE if there is a hole already there for me I know what I would do, especially under the conditions at the time.

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  • 3 months later...

Looks like the map reference has been mis-trancribed along the way.

You may be lucky to find an original burial location in this file;

Burial Returns from Chaplains OCs and Record of Burials, September-October 1917

AWM 25 135/10

held at the Australian War Memorial.

Chris Henschke

I have been unable to find AWM 25 135/10 on the AWM site. Please may I have a link.

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Wooster, the answer is in the book of the 43rd they themselves wrote. I just checked his service record and it is incorrect and misleading because the word OR is missing. Appendix V lists the Roll of Honour and on page 214 it says that he and around 9 others were buried at 61 D b. c. OR d. In other words, divide the grid into 4 parts, typically each 500 x 500 yards:

a b

c d

The missing men might be in sector b or sector c or sector d, but not sector a.

Page 53 covers the series of battles you want, particularly the machine gunfire from the pillbox that caused many casualties. The book is a free download and is a fascinating read for me, as my grandfather joined 9 weeks after this action. The book is called, imaginatively, The Forty-Third and is written by their adjutant, Captain Colliver. I think I downloaded my copy from archive. Sing out if you want any more help.

Cheers,

Bill

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AWM4, Sub-class 1/47 - Administrative Staff, Headquarters 3rd Australian Division (October)has a bit about burials, which appear to have done whilst under shell fire, that and the problems evacuating the wounded make grime reading

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  • spof changed the title to 43rd Battalion AIF Zonnebeke 1917

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