43rd Battalion AIF Zonnebeke 1917

[Andy Wade]

If you were detailed with burying men, would you walk into the middle of the field and bury them, or bury them in a row near to the road, possibly for exhumation to Tyne Cot(?) later. Bear in mind that Tyne Cot is very visible just a few hundred yards to the North of this.

They don't look like craters, even the small craters are very white because of the chalky subsoil that has been excavated and have a dark spot in the middle (a shadow?), These 'graves' all look a bit greyish though, like soil and subsoil mixed together as if a hole has been dug and then filled back in. I dare not even hope that I'm right because of the potential discovery.

There are another two potential spots at the other side of egbert's circle, same side of the road.

[towisuk]

Co-ordnates given for burial with Tyne Cot just to the North

Tom

[EOHMacgowan]

Andy, Roger & everyone else,

There is a lot to think about here. Firstly, the Trench map mark of our Pal, egbert, is spot on, but, I am not sure about the 'red circle' on the aerial map of 22.7.1917, in relation to the roads / tracks that are visible. So, I reckon we should double check up on this. I attach a 'Battalion Map' used of the area, and the 43rd Bn AIF were in this area from 3rd October 1917, at what was the front line, marked 'Jump off line'. They attacked from here and formed the next line of defence, called 'Consolidation line', by the 4th October. Other Battalions AIF 'leapfrogged the advance further to the 'objective line', just past Tyne Cot. It was here where the 43rd, at 6pm on the 13th, moved up in support to the Front Line Battalion, the 43rd Bn Hqtrs located at Seine, and were here for two days before releif by the 35th Bn AIF took place at 5.30pm - 6pm on the 15th. It was at this time that my man got knocked, along with 2 other 43rd soldiers. The 43rd Battalion then were in Support, in area shaded on map from Oct 10th to 21st 1917, and then they were moved to the 'Back Area', south of Ypres, to rest. Unlike former 'Support Areas', this locality was subjected to frequent and heavy shoots, causing a number of casualties to the unit from day to day, although the men were exceptionally well dug in. After two day's rest, working parties were engaged in salvaging, burials of Australian, English and German dead from previous days of fighting, and stretcher bearing. Rations and water were brought forward nightly by pack animals and dumped at the crossroads between Seine and Beecham, from where parties collected and conveyed them to their respective companies.

On this map, I can work out where my Trench Map reference is, in the shaded area of the S.SW section of their shaded Support area. Trench map references for burial of 20 men of the 43rd Bn AIF between 10th Oct and 20 Oct 1917 at Sheet 28.D.16.d.1.2. (x 1 soldier) : 28.D.16.d.1.7. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.2.5. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.3.3. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.3.4. (x 7 soldier) : 28.D.16.d.3.5. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.4.2. (x 2) : 28.D.16.d.4.3. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.4.5. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.4.6. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.5.2. (x 1) ; 28.D.16.d.5.5. (x 1) ; 28.D.16.d.7.3. (x 1). I leave you fellows to join the dots, but you will see a burial field that could contain a couple of hundred men, maybe three hundred, maybe more, of Australian, English & German armies.

A Battalion is one thousand men, though they were well under strength at this point of time, a Brigade is 4 Battalions and 3 Brigades formed a Division, thats up to 12,000 men, under strength, so lets say 10,000 men to a Division. The 43rd belong to the 3rd Division AIF, all five Australian Divisions were engaged in this, the Third Battle of Ypres, between July and November, 1917, the 66th British Division were there at same time and the Canadian 10th Division took over from the Aussie 3rd Division on the 21st October 1917. I am no expert on this matter, but there is possibly 6 to 8000 men in this relatively small area, being a 'bog-hole' of waist deep mud, rain and continual shelling. This was 'Hell on Earth'.

If egbert's aerial map ring is on Trench Map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4. and the map is dated 22 Jul 1917, to my reckoning, the Allied forces were not this far advanced, not until 12th October was the front line pushed just past Tyne Cot. So, Andy, those 6 markings by the side of the road, possibly are gravesites, but more than likely are German ones, nevertheless.

Tyne Cot cemetery, formed by the CWGC after the war to take exhumations of soldiers buried in surrounding areas, to consolidate. It first came into being in October 1917, when one of the captured pillboxes was used as an Advanced Dressing Station, resulting in some 350 burials between then and the end of March 1918. The Cemetery was much enlarged after the Armistice by the concentration of over 11,500 graves from the battlefields of Passchendaele and Langemarck and from a few smaller surrounding burial grounds. The dates of death cover the four years from October 1914 to September 1918 inclusive. Un-named graves in the cemetery number nearly 8,400 or 70% of the total, and the names of the un-identified soldiers who lie in them are inscribed on the Menin Gate Memorial and on the panels of the Memorial which stands to the rear of this Cemetery. Point being, the burial ground where Tyne Cot Cemetery now is, was just that back in October 1917, the same as the multiple Trench Map references I have quoted here for Sheet 28.D.16. There is a good chance that my man is in Tyne Cot Cemetery, Grave Unknown, with headstone marked 'Known unto God'.

Well, that's me spent for now, see you all tomorrow,

Cheers & Beers,

Phil.

[towisuk]

Map at post #12 is correct for the map co-ordinates given in post #1......16d.3.4 (from Linesman, red marker flag) The pin in post #19

could be the position of the remainder of the burials, as yet not found...

Tom

[EOHMacgowan]

Reply to Tom #21.......

You are right, Tom, re Post #12, with your flag pin replacement for D.16.d.3.4., but this is a 'pin-point' reference, to the centre of an area being d . 2-5/3-5 . 3-5 / 4-5 . possibly a 10 metre square, guessing, as I do not know the scale of your map. But, with this in mind, your suggestion that 'missing' burials to the west of your 'pin-drop', in open land, is very feasible, and still be referred to in the area of Map Reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4.

Cheers,

Phil.

[EOHMacgowan]

Reply to egbert, Post #7.......

Just worked out your 'red ring' marker on aerial map of 22.7.1917, for Trench Map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4. I could not 'see' it before, in relation to landmarks (roads) and other contributors, to Map reference placement, but I can now. The 'red ring' is where house now stands at greenhouse property of today, re Google map. I do apologise for expressing doubt in my posting of #20, but can surely see the connection now. You wouldn't happen to have an aerial map taken after October 1917, now, that would be interesting......

Cheers,

Phil.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Phil.

A long shot,but if you go into some of the small local military (concentration) cemeteries in that area and look for unknown Australian graves and take a note of the location of the grave plot/row ect,Then contact the C.W.G.C give them the locations and relevent information you have and they may be able to tell you where the remains were found using the burial returns from their archives, and if one fits your location your away.

Some graves may be unknowns but have a date.You never know!

Good luck.

Best Regards Andy

[harm45]

Andy, Roger & everyone else,

There is a lot to think about here. Firstly, the Trench map mark of our Pal, egbert, is spot on, but, I am not sure about the 'red circle' on the aerial map of 22.7.1917, in relation to the roads / tracks that are visible. So, I reckon we should double check up on this. I attach a 'Battalion Map' used of the area, and the 43rd Bn AIF were in this area from 3rd October 1917, at what was the front line, marked 'Jump off line'. They attacked from here and formed the next line of defence, called 'Consolidation line', by the 4th October. Other Battalions AIF 'leapfrogged the advance further to the 'objective line', just past Tyne Cot. It was here where the 43rd, at 6pm on the 13th, moved up in support to the Front Line Battalion, the 43rd Bn Hqtrs located at Seine, and were here for two days before releif by the 35th Bn AIF took place at 5.30pm - 6pm on the 15th. It was at this time that my man got knocked, along with 2 other 43rd soldiers. The 43rd Battalion then were in Support, in area shaded on map from Oct 10th to 21st 1917, and then they were moved to the 'Back Area', south of Ypres, to rest. Unlike former 'Support Areas', this locality was subjected to frequent and heavy shoots, causing a number of casualties to the unit from day to day, although the men were exceptionally well dug in. After two day's rest, working parties were engaged in salvaging, burials of Australian, English and German dead from previous days of fighting, and stretcher bearing. Rations and water were brought forward nightly by pack animals and dumped at the crossroads between Seine and Beecham, from where parties collected and conveyed them to their respective companies.

This map is to small to makeout anthing please repost a big one

On this map, I can work out where my Trench Map reference is, in the shaded area of the S.SW section of their shaded Support area. Trench map references for burial of 20 men of the 43rd Bn AIF between 10th Oct and 20 Oct 1917 at Sheet 28.D.16.d.1.2. (x 1 soldier) : 28.D.16.d.1.7. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.2.5. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.3.3. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.3.4. (x 7 soldier) : 28.D.16.d.3.5. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.4.2. (x 2) : 28.D.16.d.4.3. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.4.5. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.4.6. (x 1) : 28.D.16.d.5.2. (x 1) ; 28.D.16.d.5.5. (x 1) ; 28.D.16.d.7.3. (x 1). I leave you fellows to join the dots, but you will see a burial field that could contain a couple of hundred men, maybe three hundred, maybe more, of Australian, English & German armies.

A Battalion is one thousand men, though they were well under strength at this point of time, a Brigade is 4 Battalions and 3 Brigades formed a Division, thats up to 12,000 men, under strength, so lets say 10,000 men to a Division. The 43rd belong to the 3rd Division AIF, all five Australian Divisions were engaged in this, the Third Battle of Ypres, between July and November, 1917, the 66th British Division were there at same time and the Canadian 10th Division took over from the Aussie 3rd Division on the 21st October 1917. I am no expert on this matter, but there is possibly 6 to 8000 men in this relatively small area, being a 'bog-hole' of waist deep mud, rain and continual shelling. This was 'Hell on Earth'.

If egbert's aerial map ring is on Trench Map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4. and the map is dated 22 Jul 1917, to my reckoning, the Allied forces were not this far advanced, not until 12th October was the front line pushed just past Tyne Cot. So, Andy, those 6 markings by the side of the road, possibly are gravesites, but more than likely are German ones, nevertheless.

Tyne Cot cemetery, formed by the CWGC after the war to take exhumations of soldiers buried in surrounding areas, to consolidate. It first came into being in October 1917, when one of the captured pillboxes was used as an Advanced Dressing Station, resulting in some 350 burials between then and the end of March 1918. The Cemetery was much enlarged after the Armistice by the concentration of over 11,500 graves from the battlefields of Passchendaele and Langemarck and from a few smaller surrounding burial grounds. The dates of death cover the four years from October 1914 to September 1918 inclusive. Un-named graves in the cemetery number nearly 8,400 or 70% of the total, and the names of the un-identified soldiers who lie in them are inscribed on the Menin Gate Memorial and on the panels of the Memorial which stands to the rear of this Cemetery. Point being, the burial ground where Tyne Cot Cemetery now is, was just that back in October 1917, the same as the multiple Trench Map references I have quoted here for Sheet 28.D.16. There is a good chance that my man is in Tyne Cot Cemetery, Grave Unknown, with headstone marked 'Known unto God'.

Well, that's me spent for now, see you all tomorrow,

Cheers & Beers,

Phil.

This map is to small to makeout anthing please repost a big one

[EOHMacgowan]

harm45, re your post #25,

I will post a bigger version of 'Battleground', it will be much easier to understand, just bear with me while I consult my IT man to see if I can improve on it, give us a couple of days,

Cheers,

Phil.

[EOHMacgowan]

Reply to 'andy pugh', of Post #24.......

Andy,

I hear what you are saying, but the logistics for me to personally visit War Graves in this area, is not possible for me at this point of time, and add to the fact I live in Australia, is a bit far away for a weekend trip, but I do appreciate your comments and thoughts on this matter.

The fact that Oliver's trench map reference burial 'In the Field' is only a 'stones throw' from Tyne Cot Cemetery, I'm tipping that he possibly could have been exhumed and reburied into Tyne Cot, at War's end, but not being able to positively identify his body by name, hence the epitah on so many of the headstones of the Western Front Cemeteries - "A Soldier of the Great War, Known Unto God". I have since learned that of the Australian Soldiers buried at Tyne Cot Cemetery, 578 are of 'Known Graves' and 790 are of 'Unknown Graves', for a total of 1368. Do you think the CWGC could tell me if any of these 790 Australian 'Unknown Graves' were exhumed from Trench Map Reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4.?

It is hard to comprehend ; If a soldier's nationality is known by his uniform / badges, as he is reburied into 'Unknown Grave', as an Australian Soldier, but that his "Identity Tags" are missing, so that he cannot be positively identified, as is the case for so many 'unidentifiable' soldiers, unidentifiable, not by country, but by name, does beggar misbelief.

Tyne Cot Cemetery, is it divided up into sections, like, is there a section for Australians, a seperate section for English soldiers, New Zealand etc etc, or are the reburials in no particular order of nationality?

Then again, if Oliver was exhumed at a later date, post 1920, then his 'Grave Unknown' could be in any of several other smaller local military cemeteries, as you suggested, and that's presuming he was ever exhumed at all, so the search to narrow down his grave location would be a very long hard road to tow, and all along, he could still be at Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4., where he was originally laid to rest....... and not yet found to date.

Cheers,

Phil.

[EOHMacgowan]

"harm 45", re your post #25 of 25 Oct 2010 :-

Here is my second attempt at posting this 'Battleground Map' for 43rd Battalion AIF for period October 3rd to 21st, 1917, in Ypres salient, near Zonnebeke.

I have marked with a 'red dot', is in the 'shaded area - in support', this designates Trench Map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4., is where my man was buried, 15th October,1917, buried 'In the Field' as per records kept by his Battalion, records that would have been advised to the CWGC at War's end.

Cheers

Phil.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Phil.

"Yes" could be the answer, because each headstone location in the cemetery has possibly got a burial return form on it back at the C.W.G.C H.Q and may highlight the fact that several of them may have been found buried together (Buried where they fell), along with the original map location.A long shot I know, but you never know.I beleive there is a section on the forum where people offer to look up Headstones and Cemeteries and take photos if they are in the area.

All the Best.

Andy.

[towisuk]

I'll be calling in at Tyne Cot cemetery next Monday, I'm hoping to take a photo or two of the map reference of this topic "on the ground"...

regards

Tom

[EOHMacgowan]

towisuk post #30.......

Tom, that is fantastic if you can visit this trench map site, looking forward to hearing how you got on. I intend to visit the area one day, but currently will be a few years down the track at this stage. I am going to post some more information that I have about this area, which should be of assistance when you visit.

Cheers & All the Best, Fantastic,

Phil.

[EOHMacgowan]

Re map titled "Battle of Ypres", post #28, 2/11/2010.......

This map is about the movements of the 43rd Battalion, 11th Brigade, 3rd Division, AIF. from 4th Oct to 21st October, 1917.

At 1am, on 4th Oct, the 43rd were in position at the 'Jump Off Line', as marked on the map. Zero hour was 6am. Hill 40 proved first obstacle, with German machine gun operating from a pill box on the crest, by 6.15 am, Hill 40 had been captured. By 6.30 am, the first objective, which ran through Alma, (the 'dotted circle' consolidation line on map), was captured by the 43rd Battalion, who "laid up" while the other 3 Battalions of the 11th Brigade, the 42nd, 44th and 41st, in succession, passed through to attack further objectives. By midday, information was received from the forward troops that all objectives had been successfully captured and consolidation was in progress.

The next day, 5th, the 43rd detailed parties for salvage, burials and stretcher bearing. At midday, the 43rd, after relief, withdrew back through Ypres and arrived at Toronto Camp early the morning of the 6th, where for the next few days, re-organisation and re-fitting for a further offensive was undertaken. This is where my man, Pte E.O.H.Macgowan #4628, was 'Taken on Strength' to the 43rd, together with his younger brother, Pte M.R.G.Macgowan #4558, on 8th October.........

During early morning of the 9th, an attack North East of Zonnebeke was attempted by the English troops then holding the line, but the objectives were not gained, owing largely to the heavy condition of the ground, caused by heavy rains which fell after the battle of the 4th Oct, and to the thick wire protecting Bellevue Spur. The 3rd Australian Division was to be engaged on this sector on the night of 9th-10th, so at 11.30 am on the 9th, the 43rd Btn evacuated Toronto Camp. By 6.30 pm of the 10th, the 43rd had taken over from part of the 66th British Division, the support position at Tyne Cot, north of the Ypres - Roulers railway. The Australian positions that night were 44th and 41st Btns holding the front line with 43rd and 42nd in support. The 43rd occupied a frontage of 600 yards from the railway line on the right, to Hamburg on the left. (Marked as 'Final Objective' on the Map). The 11th Brigade withdrew the night of the 11th, with relief by the 9th Australian Brigade, withdrew along the railway line, past Zonnebeke station, bivouacking in shelters between Potsdam and Vampir. The 11th Brigade adopted the role of reserve for the 3rd Australian Division, in an attack in conjunction with the 4th Aust. Div on the right and the New Zealanders on their left, commencing at 5.20 am on the 12th. The attack on the morning of the 12th, not having been a success, (an understatement !!), was cause for the 11th Brigade to again move forward to it's old sector at Tyne Cot. At 6 pm on the 13th, the 43rd commenced its move forward, to relieve a portion of the 9th Brigade, the route selected again being the railway line, which, although considerably damaged during the last two days of fighting and persistent rain, was the only definite track existing on this sector. So great was the damage effected by hostile fire that in many parts of this track, mud, thigh deep, had to be traversed, while the pitch dark night, consistent rain and ceaseless shelling, all assisted to prolong to eight hours the period of approach. (A distance of approx 3,400 yards, approx 2 mile in the old money, in 8 hours). So, between 2 am and 3 am, relief was carried out by these mud covered troops, none of which had succeeded in reaching their trench without at least one fall.

The defences in the vicinity of Tyne Cot were again occupied, while Battalion Headquarters was located at Seine. These dispositions were maintained until the evening of the 15th, being 48 hours, when the 9th Brigade AIF again took over the line, the 11th Brigade withdrawing to reserve, the 43rd's new position being between Seine and Beecham, where it remained for 6 days. (It was at this relief changeover, at about 5.30pm - 6pm, of the 15th, that my man is killed, exactly one week on from being 'Taken on Strength'). The area of map in above post #28, shown with diagonal lines depicts the Battalion Support area of Oct 10th to Oct 21st. This locality was also subjected to frequent and heavy shoots, causing a number of casualties to the Battalion from day to day, although the men were exceptionally well dug in.

After 2 days 'rest', parties were engaged in salvaging, stretcher bearing and burials of Australian, English and German dead.

Rations and water were brought forward nightly by pack animals and dumped at the Cross Roads between Seine and Beecham, from where parties collected and conveyed them to their respective companies. Although the Battalion was not engaged in any fighting, the strain of waiting proved exceptionally severe, for during 24 hours, the only portion of the day that the enemy artillery remained quiet was between 6am and 9am, when hostile planes reconnoitred at a low altitude the British lines, and frequently harassed movement with machine gun fire and bombs.

While 11th Brigade still in reserve, the 9th Brigade (front line and support) was relieved by a portion of the 66th British Division, the 11th Brigade still remaining in reserve position until the evening of the 21st Oct, when it was relieved by the 10th Canadians.

**My point, from posting above history, in the area of post #28 map, from 4th October to 21st October, the 43rd AIF Battalion suffered 62 Killed, 184 wounded and 3 missing. This is just one of the Battalions involved. The 11th Brigade comprises 41st, 42nd, 43rd and 44th Battalions, the 9th Brigade AIF comprises 33rd, 34th, 35th and 36th Battalions, the 10th Brigade being 37th, 38th, 39th and 40th Battalions. These 3 Brigades make up the 3rd Division AIF. Take into account now the British 66th Division, the 10th Canadians, plus the German dead, who occupied Tyne cot area prior to 4th October, the numbers killed/wounded/missing for all Battalions involved in this period would be huge. The area 'flagged' in towisuk post #33, represents 20 x 43rd Battalion soldiers trench map burials, 'In the Field', as recorded by the Battalion, between 10th Oct - 20th Oct. How many trench map burials here from the other Battalions? I would say this area was a designated area for the various 'burial parties' formed to bury the dead, and that this 'designated area' is thickly sown with our War Dead. They may well have been placed into bomb craters and attempt to cover bodies with the Flanders mud, as per Smithmaps post #36, but the sickening thought is that this area was still bombed to smitherines after the burials, hence the high numbers of 'Unknown Graves', with un-identifiable soldiers, the high numbers of 'Missing, No Known Grave', as per the 54,700 names on the Menin Gate Memorial. (This is where my man, Great Uncle Oliver, has his name recorded, by the CWGC), or on the long, graceful, crescent wall at the top of Tyne Cot Cemetery, are the names of 35,000 Commonwealth Forces missing, no known grave.

Will leave you with that thought,

Gotta go,

Phil.

[towisuk]

Hi Phil, here's square 16D with the burial positions marked from the given trench map references...all 1 soldier apart from the one with 7 the other with 2 (marked)

regards

Tom

[Aurel Sercu]

Hello,

Forum member Marnik, being a very busy man these days, for professional reasons, asked me to kindly post the photo he took a day or two ago. To the right the location of the florist (the trench map co-ordinates). Photo as I see it taken from near the T-crossroads Schipstraat - Albertstraat, looking east.

Aurel

[towisuk]

Excellent Aurel, thats the paddock on the right of the photograph, where there may still be some bodies buried if not already exhumed and re-buried in a CWGC cemetery.

I'm passing this spot on Monday when I pop over for a day, and I've promised Phill some photo's of the area...

(I'm hoping that the weather will be kinder than it looks in Marnik's picture..!!)

regards

Tom

[Smithmaps]

An interesting thread.

One comment about burials, no soldier would dig a hole to bury somebody, when surrounded by shell holes! It is hard work digging holes, and people are lazy.

Burials in many cemeteries, were grouped into shell holes, and occasionally the headstones are grouped into clusters for this reason, unless moved after the war.

If you are looking for burial locations at specific dates, search for aerial photos of the same dates, and expect the bodies to be in the craters.

If the photo above is the right date, expect the burial to be in the shell hole.

Just an observation.

Guy

[harm45]

towisuk love to see some Videos post up on Youtube as you walk around.

And square 16D with the burial positions marked. Are all the names of men know ?

and do they have know Graves?

[towisuk]

An interesting thread.

One comment about burials, no soldier would dig a hole to bury somebody, when surrounded by shell holes! It is hard work digging holes, and people are lazy.

Burials in many cemeteries, were grouped into shell holes, and occasionally the headstones are grouped into clusters for this reason, unless moved after the war.

If you are looking for burial locations at specific dates, search for aerial photos of the same dates, and expect the bodies to be in the craters.

If the photo above is the right date, expect the burial to be in the shell hole.

Just an observation.

Guy

Hi Guy, we are working on burial information that Phil has posted(#20), the burials probably did take place in shell holes, but mostly individually, the burial of 2 and 7 men together being the exception in the list Phil has provided. As his great uncle was one of those that are missing and only 2 bodies recovered from this map reference after the war, I can understand his interest in wondering where his relative now lies. As you know, unlike you and I, there's a bit more involved in travelling from the other side of the world to get the lie of the land of where his great uncle fought and died. As I'm passing through Tyne Cot on Monday I've offered to be "Phils legs" for a short while and take some photographs of places mentioned in earlier posts. Aurel has come up trumps with Marnik able to take a photo of the initial map reference that started this topic, I'm just going to add a few more for Phil from different places...Andy and Egbert have also helped tremendously with their contributions to this topic, and should be aknowledged....

harm45...Time is a problem for extensive videoing on Monday, I land at Zeebrugge at 9:00am, travel via Ypres to Bailleul(where I have more photo's to take for a friend), and be booked in for our return ferry to Hull for 5:30pm. I am being accompanied by my brother in- law whom I promised a short tour of the Battlefields, so you can appreciate the constraints on my time for videoing. I shall be returning to the Salient again in the near future, at £37 return each, that includes car and en-suite cabin each way, its not a prohibative cost for the ferry journey at this time of year, with the added bonus of it being door to door with little driving as I live in North Lincolnshire. Time, as ever, is our enemy....as will be the weather if Aurels forecast is correct!!

regards

Tom

[EOHMacgowan]

towisuk.......re post #33:

Tom,

The '16.d.' map with my #20 post of trench map references is excellent. I have done something similar with map, more guesswork in mine though, which I will post. It differs a little in 'flag' positions, but this doesn't matter at this point in time, but it does help to confirm my theory that this area was a designated burial area used by all Battalions in this zone, and that it is not the case here that these Soldiers "Killed in Action" were buried where they fell, not all of them anyway..

Tom,.....re #28:

I read your itinerary for next Monday 15th Nov, a full on day trip, I will be thinking about you on this day, and I appreciate very much your generous offer to be "Phil's legs".

Aurel post #34, of the 'Florist' photo location currently for this trench map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4., with the house, tree's, paddock's by two on the right, looking east, as also seen in Andy Wade aerial Google shot of post #6, is right on the money. Is what 'goosebumps' are made of, for me, anyway. I can't stop looking at it, and wondering, about all and everything. Being a "Florist" business, hence the greenhouses in Andy's Google map, you might meet the owner/proprietor, I hope he is receptive to 'tourists', I wonder what he knows of the area?

Tom,...re your reply to Guy of post #36, and to the fact that most of the burial trench map references I quoted in #20 are mostly individuals. Individuals they are, of the 43rd Battalion AIF, killed in this area between 10th to 20th October, but with further research of other Battalions of Australian, English, Canadian,German forces, I'm sure, one would find soldiers buried with same trench map reference as these 'individuals' of the 43rd. A trench map reference could refer to a 10 yard x 10 yard square, (I am guessing here the size as I do not know the scale of the maps), and it is possible that 10 to 20 men could be buried in the same trench map reference, from differing battalions.

I would like to take this time to say an appreciative 'Thankyou' to Andy Wade, egbert, towisuk (Tom), Roger H, andy pugh, harm 45, Aurel and Marnik, and Guy from Smithmaps, for your time and splendid efforts in posting such positive and helpful information to this thread. I have learnt so much more about this time of the War. Thanks to you fella's, that I do feel a little closer, by knowing more, to my Great Uncle Oliver Macgowan. And much Thanks to this forum, The Great War Forum, because without this set up like it is, we would not likely be conferring as easily as we are, it is fantastic.

Many Thanks, Cheers and Good Health,

Phil.

PS: Tom, Have a 'Great' day this monday next, on your Battleground jaunt, and I look forward to your posting.

[EOHMacgowan]

harm 45.......to your post #37:

The 13 'flag drops' by towisuk of post #33, of square 16.d., represent the burial reference to 20 soldiers of the 43rd Battalion AIF killed between 10th - 20th October, 1917. I know their names / i.d.number, but I do not know if exhumed or not by CWGC post war, I would need to do more research on that, would take awhile, but can be done.

I do know that at trench map reference Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4., there were 7 soldiers buried from the 43rd Battalion AIF, where "towisuk" has marked "7. flag " on his map post #33. Of the 7 x 43rd Battalion soldiers buried at this trench map reference, one is Pte F.P.Coade #2552(a), exhumed 23.2.1939, (12 years after the event?),and he was reburied at Bedford House Cemetery, Zillebeke, in Grave 1, Row C, Plot 4. (Maybe his body was found when earth / building works were done at this 'Florist' property at trench map Sheet 28.D.16.d.3.4.)

Another of the 7 x 43rd Battalion soldiers, buried at this same trench map reference, was a Pte F.T.Conway #2305, trench map reference as recorded by his Battalion Headquarters, but he was "identified by disc" at map reference Sheet 28.D.15.d.60.50. on 12.12.1919 by CWGC and he also was reburied at Tyne Cot Cemetery, Plot 16, Row A, Grave 11. Where Pte F.T.Conway "body' was found is approx 200 yards from D.16.d.3.4. Mystery here is, has the Battalion made an error in recording his trench map reference? He was killed 17.10, so that puts him with 43rd in "Shaded Bn Support Area" of my map post #28. Were his id tags blown this far by hostile bomb or bombing?

There is another soldier, not in my tally of 7 x 43rd Battalion, namely a Pte A.M.Budge #1928 of 35th Battalion AIF, buried at this same trench map reference of Sheet 28.D.16.d.35.40. exhumed 23.9.1921, identified by numerals, reburied Tyne Cot Cemetery, Plot 22, Row D, Grave 1. (He may have 'Unknown Grave' next to his grave site in Tyne Cot Cemetery, and possible then these 'Unknown' sites could have been exhumed the same time, same trench map reference, as Pte A.M.Budge).

Of the 7 x 43rd Battalion soldiers buried at this trench map reference, 2 'known' soldiers were reburied as I have stated above. The 5 remaining soldiers could have been exhumed but not identifiable (by id tags), and reburied in surrounding cemeteries, more than likely would be Tyne Cot Cemetery, depending on date exhumed, and buried in "Unknown Graves", OR, could still be at this trench map reference, even today.

I do know that the 43rd Battalion kept meticulous records throughout the war campaign, and that trench map reference's for 'In the Field' burials were given to the CWGC at war's end, or the Imperial War Graves Commission as it was most likely called then.

Cheers,

Phil.

[EOHMacgowan]

Smithmaps....... #38;

Guy,

A very good valid observation, but I imagine the shell holes in this "hell on earth" were overlapping one another, but, yes, an aerial shot of this area, dated 20.10.1917 or thereabouts, would be able to show what the area was like.

Isn't there an old soldiers myth about the safest place is in a shellhole, that lightning doesn't strike the same place twice, or have I got that all wrong......

Cheers,

Phil.

[EOHMacgowan]

Aurel Sercu.......#34:

Aurel,

This photo is right on the money, top stuff and I am very thankful, to both you and your friend, Marnik. I have today replied to your 'personal message', with regards to a copy.

Many Thanks,

Cheers,

Phil.