Pte FT Tovey.

[MasterMariner]

Hi everyone,

I'm in a bit of a quandary! I know absolutely nothing about this man (dob, place of birth etc) and yet his medals have come through the family. There are two medals on a display bar (with possibly a third removed as there is a ragged edge) and the inscription on the edge reads " 16L-5207 PTE FT TOVEY 15-LRS".

I've been through the military section of Ancestry and have found nothing that ties in with the above. I assume that 16L-5207 is a service number and 15-LRS is a unit identification.

I've tried a general search for FT Tovey in the 1901 Census and have not come up with anything conclusive. I believe that he did survive the war as we have a Lodge Medal for one of the ancient orders post WW1 but I did do a check in the CWGC site and came up with nothing.

Can anyone shed any light on the meaning of the inscription or on this man please?

Master Mariner

[dannyhill86]

Hi Mariner

F T (Frederick Thomas) Tovey was with the 16th Lancers (16L) with the service number 5207 with the rank of private. According to his MIC he was a pre-war soldier and involved in the early engagements of the war (stopping the German advance of 1914). He entered France and Flanders theatre of operations on 17 - 8- 1914 (BEF) and was awarded the 1914 star with clasp and roses, the british war medal and victory medal. He was clearly wounded and invalided out of the service, being awarded the Silver Wound Badge and subsequently discharged on 15 - 6 -1915.

The 16th (Queens) Lancers were doing the following ion 1914:

16th (The Queen's) Lancers

August 1914 : at the Curragh, part of 3rd Cavalry Brigade in Cavalry Division. Moved to France.

6 September 1914 : Brigade transferred to Gough's Command.

13 September 1914 : Gough's Command renamed as 2nd Cavalry Division.

Afraid not too much time at the moment but i will check a few bits out later, if not i'm sure some helpful person will be along soon.

Either way, it looks like you have the makings of a cracking story here.....

Good luck,

Dan

[MasterMariner]

Hi Dan,

That's far more than I expected to get in so short a time!! As you say, this has the potential of being interesting not just from 'how it came through the family' but also about his career. The 15-LRS on the end, does that signify the pre-war soldiering?

Thanks again

MM

[SteveE]

He was clearly wounded and invalided out of the service, being awarded the Silver Wound Badge and subsequently discharged on 15 - 6 -1915.

Not necessarily so, the Silver WAR Badge could be authorised for issue for any number of reasons, wounds and sickness were the most common reasons given for discharge from the service but not the only ones by any means. For example, it's quite possible, given his number could possibly have been issued in around 1901/1902, that he was discharged "Time Expired" on the completion of his service. A way to tell what he was discharged for is to check his entry in the Silver War Badge Roll, this should be quite informative as it will also give his enlistment date.

His entry in the Silver War Badge roll (Army Medal Office reference CC/3) can be found at the National Archives under reference;

WO 329/2959 Cavalry: Lancers and Dragoons (Canterbury) list CC 1-400. Silver War Badge 1914-1920.

Regards

Steve

[SteveE]

The 15-LRS on the end, does that signify the pre-war soldiering?

MM

I suspect, based on all the details to hand, that it actually says 16-LRS, the unit he served overseas with. Is there a chance it's been mis-read?

Regards

Steve

[dannyhill86]

MM

Glad you found the info useful. It would be very interesting to find out exaxctly what his war experiences were. A good way to do this would be to try and work out where he was from... what would be your best guess in terms of area? If you can narrow him down to a person on the census the 1911 should show jif he was a career soldier or not. Also from that you can check his local newspaper for any mentions of wounds/illness etc (from my experience the wounds etc in the early years of the war were reported more regularly than those from 1916 onwards). You may also find the link to your own family.

If you have any idea about where he mayhave come from that would be a good start.

I agree with the 15-LRS mis-spelling idea aswell. I have not come across the term before but i'm by no means an expert.

Good Luck,

Dan

[dannyhill86]

MM

A long shot in terms of identifying the correct FT Tovey although there is a marriage in 1911 for a Frederick Thomas Tovey to a Fanny Gatward. FT is 26 and an accounts assistant, which doesent exactly help the pre war soldier theory, although his father is down as a John Tovey (soldier - dead). Not particularly common for the time although not uncommon either. Going by the 19th and early 20th century norms of following a father's profession, it is 'possible' that he could be the soldier in question..... although shakey at best.

There are at least a few other options that I have not looked at. Any location information would be really help.

I couldn't find anything on a catchment area for the 16th Lancers apart from them being raised in Northampton way back in the 18th century.

Good KLuck,

Dan

[hmsk212]

Hi

List CC/3

Steve

[SteveE]

Steve

Thanks for posting the SWB Roll details, it's very informative and, I'm sure, will be of much interest to MM.

Regards

Steve

[MasterMariner]

Hi everybody,

Many thanks for the amazing input from everyone, it is much appreciated. I'll give you a brief bit of background so that you can see why I'm groping around in the dark at present.

My late father in law's father died at a young age and he was then 'mentored' by the next door neighbour William (Billy) Hope and his wife Emily. Billy, a former WW1 Sapper (that'll be another story another day!) died in 1975 and a lot of his family papers etc were kept by my wife who is a squirrel for all things old. Among all this stuff there were items realting to this FT Tovey, leading us to the conclusion that he was Billy Hope's brother in law, however, we never found any documentation to prove this. My mother in law (who remembers Emily vaguely) feels that she was a Londoner - which tends to cover a big area!

One other thing that we've found that may/may not help - we have a beautiful boxed Primo Award for the Order of the Buffalo, Queen Alexandra Lodge 452, awarded 22-2-26. The presentation case has a Bradford jeweller's address who also had branches in London, Manchester, Glasgow and Cardiff. I contacted a Buffs web site (a Buff's buff?) and they had never heard of the Lodge in question.

MM

[certacito79]

Hi MM, I have the MIC for the 16th L during the war and it also shows a W E Tovey, Im currently putting togther a regimental database of Officers and OR's so will give this some more research and let you know what comes back.

[J-p tovey]

This was my grandfather 

 

 

 

[J-p tovey]

You won’t find anything conclusive in searches 

 

he’s known under many names

jon Tovey 

johnny Tovey 

William Tovey 

Thomas Tovey  

Tom Tovey 

Jon Tovey 

jon England 

tom England 

tom Harvey 

jon Harvey 

 

( I’m sure there are more - none of these people have a born date, none have “family” 

none have end dates ( except through injury ) 

only one has a death cert & grave stone ) 

 

his injuries upon death were 

 

bullet in back ( too close to spine )

bullet in back ( too close to spine )

bullet in back ( too close to spine )

bullet in Leg ( unremoved )

bullet in Leg ( unremoved )

bullet in Leg ( unremoved )

 

bullet in arm ( unremoved )

bullet in arm ( unremoved )

bullet in foot ( unremoved )

wound to chest

wound to back

wound to neck 

 

standing 6’7”, weighing 18 stone at death you can only imagine what he was like in his 20’s & 40’s during the wars - he worked up until 1981 for her majesty being 83 years old however I can’t get any details on him until 2031 

 

he was born in 1898 In Swindon 

 

 

 

other names were inserted before & after the first names - his roles varied across all HM services -  you won’t ever make sense out of it he was dispatched under many different vices - we have medals for sea, air & land 

we know of 7 Medals that were given to people of whom protected or helped - one being a French soldier who Carried him out of German Territory Called Jean-Paul 

( I’m named after him )

 

however the family name is TOVEY ( pretty famous war family ) - he’s mentioned in his relatives diary - lord admiral Tovey on numerous occasions

 

They were half brothers ( through an affair ) 

& later fell apart when the one slept with the others wife who fell pregnant 

 

He served in both WW1 & WW2 

We found a number of ID’s upon his death in his allotment - he was shot in the leg & chest in WW1  & shot in the back in WW2 retrieving documents that helped towards the D day landing operation, he was a promiscuous man with good looks, charm & power - he was a dad & grandad to many people 

 

he’s buried in Northampton  

Edited 15 February , 2020 by J-p tovey
Extra

[Mark1959]

There is a Pension Ledger Card - courtesy of the Western Front Association - for 5207. Shows discharge was due to DAH - that stands for  Disorderly Action of the Heart. Found to be attributable to his war service, There are 2 post-discharge address for 5207: one in Wolverhampton and one in Wednesfield. Year of  birth is give as 1886

On 01/10/2010 at 14:17, dannyhill86 said:

A long shot in terms of identifying the correct FT Tovey although there is a marriage in 1911 for a Frederick Thomas Tovey to a Fanny Gatward

This lead me to a probate record for a Frederick Thomas Tovey of Guldford died Coventry 15/10/1936. Probate to widow Fanny.This info leads to a Birth in Guildford in 1886 of Thomas Frederick Tovey. This man was indeed the son of John a Sgt in the 3rd Queens Royal West Surreys. There is a Batism record dated 5/12/1886 John appears to die in 1893. One source suggests 28/10/1886 as a birth date for FT or TF but no supporting document.There is however a school admission record for Frederick Thomas father John into Colls Road School in 1893. Colls Road is in Peckham. This gives dob as 28/10/87 - that appears to be a year out. 

Sadly Frederick may have been admitted to the workhouse after John's death, 

The 1891 census shows the family in Bermondsey

John - Recruiting Sgt

Mary Ann wife

Herbert John 14

William E 9

Leslie 6

Thomas F 4

Maud 2

Unnamed infant 1 month

1901 show Mary Ann, Leslie, Thomas and Maud only

1911 has Mary Ann, William Ernest and Maud. 

These 2 returns are in Bermondsey

MM - I am founding ypur last post hard to follow. 

William Ernest above was baptised in Aldershot on 30/4/1882 (parents John and Mary Ann)and appears to be the man born aldershot 10/2/1882. in 1939, this man is working as a sorter in a Post Office, Dagenham. Wife Florrie and at least one child Reginald (b 1920). 

The soldier WE Tovey there is a medal card for was a Boer War veteran, 

So knotting all together we are getting near a positive conclusion. There is a lot evidence to indicate that 5207 is the TF or FT in the family from the census returns. There are no records I can find that show that WE Tovey 4674/L13069 is definitely the brother. However, if we can get that bit of evidence  and you confirm William Ernest from the 1939 return is your relative we should have a positive id.

Howeve you say your grandfather was born Swindon 1898 and that would suggest none of these records may be relevant

 

 

 

Edited 15 February , 2020 by Mark1959

[grantowi]

On 15/02/2020 at 00:04, J-p tovey said:

he was born in 1898 In Swindon 

 

Did he have a brother Fred Norman Tovey (born, Wandsworth, 1980) ?

Fred is on the Swindon census, marked as serving

 

Do you have any more info on his family, parents, wife, kids ?

 

Grant

Edited 20 February , 2020 by grantowi