Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry

[Hywyn]

2809/265932 was John Thomas Jones from Cyswr Bach, Rhydwyn, Valley killed in action 3rd Gazza 6/11/1917

2811/53836 was Hugh Thomas from Bethel who died of wounds with 1st Battalion 19/5/1917

(he has a 'regular' number because up to a certain point when men moved from TF to Regulars they were given a Regular number. Robert Roberts may have gone abroad after this point. Hugh Thomas is in fact shown on Soldiers Died Great War as previously 3129 in DHY.

2813/265934 was William H Williams from 1 Mountain View, Menai Bridge. Suffered from dysentery in Gallipoli.Survived the war.

This means then that Robert was either 2810 or 2812 in 6th RWF when he enlisted (or transferred from DHY). His RWF service before going overseas would have been with the 2nd 6th or possibly even the 3rd 6th

See

http://www.1914-1918.net/rwf.htm

for their UK locations in case the placenames fit in with any family stories etc

To reinforce what I say about TF numbers in Regular Battalions. There are 556 RWF men with TF numbers killed/died whilst serving in Regular Battalions. None earlier than end March/beginning April 1917 which suggests that it is shortly before that point that men were not given Regular numbers when moving from TF to Regular. If 556 died then obviously many more actually transferred.

Hywyn

Hywyn

[clive_hughes]

Just to amplify Hywyn's details a bit, towards the end of 1918 the voting list for the parish of Llandysilio (Menai Bridge) gives Robert Roberts of 4 Greenfield Terrace as 265933 Sergeant, 4th Reserve Battn. RWF.

At the same address, incidentally, is a Gabriel Roberts 67431 Private, 11th Battn. Cheshire Regiment.

Clive

[Robert Roberts]

2809/265932 was John Thomas Jones from Cyswr Bach, Rhydwyn, Valley killed in action 3rd Gazza 6/11/1917

2811/53836 was Hugh Thomas from Bethel who died of wounds with 1st Battalion 19/5/1917

(he has a 'regular' number because up to a certain point when men moved from TF to Regulars they were given a Regular number. Robert Roberts may have gone abroad after this point. Hugh Thomas is in fact shown on Soldiers Died Great War as previously 3129 in DHY.

2813/265934 was William H Williams from 1 Mountain View, Menai Bridge. Suffered from dysentery in Gallipoli.Survived the war.

This means then that Robert was either 2810 or 2812 in 6th RWF when he enlisted (or transferred from DHY). His RWF service before going overseas would have been with the 2nd 6th or possibly even the 3rd 6th

See

http://www.1914-1918.net/rwf.htm

for their UK locations in case the placenames fit in with any family stories etc

To reinforce what I say about TF numbers in Regular Battalions. There are 556 RWF men with TF numbers killed/died whilst serving in Regular Battalions. None earlier than end March/beginning April 1917 which suggests that it is shortly before that point that men were not given Regular numbers when moving from TF to Regular. If 556 died then obviously many more actually transferred.

Hywyn

Hywyn

Hello Hywan,

I can barely find the words to express my appreciation to you and others for the information provided in response to my first post. I have spent a good part of the day following up the various links, so much so that my wife thinks I have gone missing!!!

Can I pose one or two questions/observations?-:

1. I assume you can precise about enlistment in the 6th RWF on 16 or 17 November 1914 because of the date of allocation of the 281x number.

2. There is no entry on my father's medal card against "Star"--- only the J/2/102 entries against "Victory" and "British".I assume it is only by personal visit to Kew that I will be able to get any further

info. on which battalion was involved (I live near Newcastle upon Tyne)

3 Your reference to his name on the 22.9.1917. casualty list was most revealing.Can I get a copy of this from somewhere?

4. I notice from the link that 2nd 6th and 3rd6th did not see service oversea.But my father was a casualty oversea so who was he with,I wonder (back to the medal card and Kew I suppose) .For

so long I have assumed he was with the DHY in Egypt before becoming part of RWF in early 1917 as the 24th.

5.Thanks to LST_164 for the info on the late 1918 voting list where he is described as a sergeant although his medals show him as corporal. . I now know something about my uncle Gabriel other

than the fact that for many years he was the village bobby in Pentraeth, Anglesey.

Thanks again---sorry to have written at such length but I am thrilled to have found such a rich vein of information

Kerfoot

[Hywyn]

Kerfoot

The casualty list is a War Office Weekly casualty list and I will send you a scan. However you need to have 5 posts before you can use the Personal Messenger system of this Forum (by clicking on the little envelope under my name on the far left of this post)

So if you use one post to answer my query below and I'll ask another one after and we'll be there!

Can you confirm that the only WW1 medals you have are the Victory and British?

See here for photos/details

http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/themedals.htm

Hywyn

[Robert Roberts]

Hywyn,

I can confirm that the only medals I have are the British and Victory medals.I assume that the Roll and Page numbers given on his medal card would possibly lead to more information on his service.

Kerfoot

[Hywyn]

Kerfoot

Re medals. Thanks for that. The reason I was asking was there are (rare) occasions where the Star medal is on a separate card. Yes, the Roll and Page number should lead to identifying the Battalion(s) in which he served. I'll address that with you soon.

Was there any talk of service in Egypt or was this an assumption from your research?

Hywyn

(one post to go!)

[Robert Roberts]

Kerfoot

Re medals. Thanks for that. The reason I was asking was there are (rare) occasions where the Star medal is on a separate card. Yes, the Roll and Page number should lead to identifying the Battalion(s) in which he served. I'll address that with you soon.

Was there any talk of service in Egypt or was this an assumption from your research?

Hywyn

(one post to go!)

Hywyn,

I think it is largely an assumption on my part. For some years (since the commencement of my research in about 2000) I have thought that his DHY service must have been linked with that element that went to the middle East and which in early 1917 became part of RWF as the 24 battalion. But my boyhood recollection of his war wound was as a result of hand to hand combat with a German which suggests that this was more likely to have happened in Europe. Thank you .

Kerfoot

[Denbigh Hussar]

Nick - you were asking if any men served in tanks. Lieutenant C.N.I. Dunman served in the Denbigh Hussars during the Boer War and was killed in action in a tank 31.7.17. You wouldn't find his connection with the Denbigh Hussars from the MIC's.

I've attached the auction entry.

[Mrstocking]

Dear DH, thanks for the most interesting information from the auction catalogue you extracted above. I'm catching up a bit have not been on the Forum for over 12 months.

[Mrstocking]

Another interesting real photographic postcard, recently purchased on Ebay.

I'm assuming two brothers, one a member of the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry, the other the Royal Army Medical Corp.

It would be great to identify them!

[Mrstocking]

I am posting photos relating to Thomas Edward Penson, KIA at the battle of Epehy September 18, 1918.

Thomas joined the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry in December, 1914, in Wrexham and was in 2nd troop, D Squadron, serving in Egypt and Palestine in 1917. He was commissioned as a 2nd Lt. in the 25th Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers in March 1918.

Of particular interest is the group photo of Sergeant NCO's taken in Palestine in 1917, Penson is to the far right of the photo.

[Mrstocking]

Further photos show Penson as an officer, etc...............

[Mrstocking]

The middle photo is of Penson and his brother Peter, on his last leave. The bottom letter is from Penson's commanding officer.

[Matt Crinyion]

My great grandfather James Crinyion (from Birkenhead) was Regimental Sergeant Major (Acting Warrant Officer Class 1) with the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry (632) and 24th (Denbighshire Yeomanry) Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusiliers (345170). Joined the Yeomanry in September 1914 at the age of 34. He had just done 12 years Short Service (Cavalry of the Line ) to Corps of Hussars of the Line (8th Hussars 4882, later 15th Hussars 4452) from 1900 to 1912 serving overseas in India.

Mentioned in depatches by General EHH Allenby, Commander in Chief, Egyptian Expeditionary Force 3rd April 1918. Also awarded Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) for action in Flanders September to November 1918.

Have attached a couple of photos. First photo of James in front of a desert camp. Hand written “El Alamein” on back of photo so I’d guess 1916 in Egypt when defending Suez. Second photo (undated) of James (sitting on second row far right of picture) with a group of other sergeants. Have no other names. Looks to be taken in a hall (Wrexham or Birkenhead D Squadron?).

[Mrstocking]

I am posting a few more photos from the Crinyion archive, I especially like this one of the brothers, James and John who were twins.

[Matt Crinyion]

Thanks Nick for posting the picture of James Crinyion (Denbigh Huss Yeo /24 RWF) with his twin John.

John Crinyion served in the Border Regiment 33284 (new picture attached with youngest brother George) as well as Royal West Kent Regiment G/31660 (uniform as in the photo you posted).

Medal card indicated John as Corporal although has 3 sleeve stripes in Royal West Kent uniform so maybe Lance Sergeant at the end. 3 lines on left sleeve indicate wounded 3 times.

Before WW1 John had just done 12 years Short Service (to 1911) with the 2^nd Battalion Cheshire regiment 6072 and fought in 2^nd Boer War 1900 to 1902 (as Private) and was posted to East Indies for 4 years..

There don't seem to be any surviving WWI service records for either James or John online. I have attestation/service records for their pre-war short service, all medal cards, citations etc. Also have copy of War diaries for the 24 RWF March 18 - Mar 19.

Any idea's on additional (online) resources, particularly access to earlier WW1 middle east war diaries for Denbigh Yeomanry? Also struggling to find info on which battalions of the Borders and Royal West Kent John served in. Thanks.

[Mrstocking]

I know the National Archives are in the process of publishing most battalion War Diaries online, indeed I have seen a set of CDs advertised, by a leading military bookseller of the very same for £350. Whether these would include the Denbighshire Yeomanry diaries is hard to say. I do remember researching the diaries at the National Archives for my BA thesis about 15 or so years ago and many from the 1918 period were in faded pencil and also impossible to read, there were also many gaps. There was no consistency and some battalions/regiments had a very high standard of literacy and content when doing their diaries, others did not.

As for service papers, well we can blame the German Luftwaffe as about 80% were destroyed by enemy bombing during The Blitz. As early as the 1970s I discovered the often hit and miss chances of finding attestation papers for both the Boer War and later the Great War.

[Matt Crinyion]

I've posted another photo of James Crinyion (seated on right) I think taken in Egypt (El Alamein) . I'm led to understand that the other chap in the photo (smoking a pipe) is Acting Sergeant Harry M (Malcolm) Smith b. 1895, Denbigh Yeomanry 755 and Royal Welsh Fusiliers 345201. If correct he would only be around 22 in the photo. He worked at an Accountants in Chester after the war. His daughter was Daphne Lowe whose husband Roy Lowe ran Browns The Jewellers on the rows at the cross in Chester and was Mayor of Chester for a while.

[GriffMJ]

Nick

I have been looking into this topic with interest as the Denbighshire Hussars Yeomanry is one of my collecting subjects.I have been getting a good deal of information from old photos and I notice that you have Tom Penson's image seated with a Pith Helmet amongst others. Would it be possible to post up a hi-resolution image of the Pith Helmet on the table so the badge can be seen?

You also have the image of the "two brothers" (one a medic)..... could you provide a hi-res of their caps as well please?

Insignia:-

I have proven that the DHY had an NCO Arm Badge (small Prince of Wales Feathers) and that it also carried on into the 24th (DHY) Btn..... in fact the group photo in Palestine shows a Sergeant next to Tom Penson that is wearing the NCO Arm badge above his chevrons. This, I believe, possibly indicates that he is a Troop Sergeant (or Platoon Sgt). Again, a hi-resolution image of that arm would probably provide some good detail from the photo.

[Mrstocking]

I'll see what I can do!

[GriffMJ]

Thank you very much Nick..... it will go some way to solve the riddle of the 24th (DHY) Btn RWF insignia.

[Hywyn]

Albert/Nick

Possibly of interest to you re DHY.

I have recently submitted the below with appropriate evidence to CWGC for consideration of amendment. They are showing on CWGC as 24th Bn RWF men whereas they are clearly DHY men with no RWF connection having died/been discharged before the formation of RWF 24th Bn. Clicking on the number in column six should bring up the CWGC. One has already been amended by someone else since I created my xl file a few years ago. I'm confident they will be amended and should appear as their proper unit in a month or two.

24th 23 STEPHENS C 05/02/1915 1079 2/1 DHY NOT RWF

24th 84 WILLIAMS RP 05/02/1915 1235 2/1 DHY NOT RWF

24th 400 PHOENIX H 05/07/1917 2114 1/1 DHY NOT RWF

24th 693 WILLIAMS RH 02/11/1918 2969 1/1 DHY disch 2 7 1915 NOT RWF

24th 806 MORONEY R 09/11/1918 1883 DHY disch 18 6 1916 NOT RWF

24th 1005 JONES RE 26/04/1915 534 DHY man. Not RWF (not changed by me)

24th 1870 JONES T 11/03/1920 63 DHY not RWF

24th 3191 ROWLANDS HR 11/09/1915 1016 1/1 DHY NOT RWF

24th 5259 ROBINSON W 18/09/1915 1002 2/1 DHY NOT RWF

also

24th 38496 VICKERS GE 09/02/1918 2769 2/1 DHY NOT RWF

25th RWF (Mont Yeo/W Horse) did not have this 'problem' They only have John Rhys Thomas (RWF 355874) showing under his Welsh Horse numberof 1259. This has been submitted as well.

Hywyn

edit: It was a nice table when I pressed the send button!

[GriffMJ]

All good stuff and diolch Hywyn.

I will work out how to attch images in this forum and start to fill my gallery up with some DHY images that might be of interest. For some reason the knowledge of its insignia has become muddled over time and it would be good to correct. I dont know if any of you are familiar with Bryn Owens books..... but there are some mistakes.

I am just trying a couple of things out to see how the forum works with its images.... sadly I think we are restricted on size?

Here is an image from a group photo of the DHIY in 1904... the chap on the right is a Lancer PSI and if you look above him you will see a chap with a medics patch and just below that a small Prince of Wales feathers NCO arm badge. In the main group photo "all" the SNCO's are wearing the the POWFs arm badge. I have images of NCOs in blues and khaki up to 1913 wearing it...... so Nicks picture of Tom Penson's group with one of the NCOs in the 24th (DHY) Btn RWF wearing what looks like the same NCOs arm badge has some real interest. Hopefully Nick can get a hi-res of it?

Q: Can anyone tell me how to create an album here?

[Hywyn]

Albert (or is it Griff?)

I'm afraid I'm not going to be of much help to you with albums/images etc. I'm sure others will come along with advice re that.

With regards to to uniforms/insignias, unfortunately that is an aspect that doesn't grip me. What I mean is that , yes, seeing the images and discussing individuals interests me but I'm not a buff with regards to the fine ins and outs of the uniforms/insignias. There are some very knowledgable members on the Forum who will engage I'm sure.

I'm sure I have Bryn Owen's 'Owen Roscomyl...' and the Anglesey & Caernarfonshire Milita book somewhere in my pile of books.

Hywyn

[GriffMJ]

Hywyn.... its Gruffydd .... (Albert Lester is a just a nick ) "Griff" is the short version for the English ....as I normally spend 5 minutes explaining my name to them (bless 'em)!

I understand about the insignia side..... I do get excited about information on individuals as long as I have a photo id of that person. So I am not "just about the badges" I assure you. Having a photo fit to a name helps me track them in other images .

Here is an interesting chap:-

Capt. L S Platt (1916)
17th Lancers & Royal Flying Corps
Adjutant DHY from 1913-15

Lionel Sydney Platt was born on the 1st October 1885. He was the only son of Sydney Platt
(1861-1937) and Agnes Bertha Platt (1863-1952) (nee Marshall) who were married on the
18th November 1884. They lived at Wargrave Manor, Berkshire. Agnes was the daughter of
the landowner Thomas Horatio Marshall (1834-1917), who was prominent in the Cheshire
Volunteers, made his fortune from salt and was knighted in 1906. Sydney was the son of John
Platt who was Liberal MP for Oldham and chairman of Platt Brothers, which was the largest
textile machine company in the world in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Lionel's sister, Eira Gwendolen Platt, was born two years later on the 2nd July 1887.
Lionel was educated at Eton College between1899-1904, and then at Magdalen College,
Oxford, for one year from 1904-05 before enrolling in the army.
He obtained his commission in the 17th Lancers in 1905, and served with them in India and
was appointed as adjutant of the Denbighshire Yeomanry in 1913 and served at home and in
Egypt and was noted as a gentleman rider.