Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry

[Mrstocking]

I am looking for any information, including photos and letters and medals warded to the Denbighshire Yeomanry or 24th Battalion, Royal Welsh Fusliers as they became during the Great War, in Egypt from 1915 to 1917.

Any information on the location of the Military Cross group to Captain Roy Austin Davidson please.

[Carmania]

Roy Austin Davidson lived for many years in Beaumaris, Anglesey. He must have had some connection with the Yeomanry Benevolent Fund as I recall seeing a letter he had written on their headed paper relating to a man who he referred to as 'one of my Yeomen', this would have been in the early 1980's.

His MC group was up for sale by one of the larger auction houses some years ago. I thought I'd kept a note of the details but cannot put my hand to it at the moment.

[Carmania]

The group was sold by Christie's in November 1992.

[Mrstocking]

Thanks for that, I bought the group in 1992 but want to trace it after 2000 if possible.

The group was sold by Christie's in November 1992.

[rmcguirk]

Roy Austin Davidson lived for many years in Beaumaris, Anglesey. He must have had some connection with the Yeomanry Benevolent Fund as I recall seeing a letter he had written on their headed paper relating to a man who he referred to as 'one of my Yeomen', this would have been in the early 1980's.

His MC group was up for sale by one of the larger auction houses some years ago. I thought I'd kept a note of the details but cannot put my hand to it at the moment.

Aled,

I'm intrigued that you've actually heard of Roy Austin Davidson. He was a fellow Light Car officer in Egypt with Edward Davies Moore, whom we were discussing in a separate thread (Middle East& N Africa) a few weeks ago. Nick and I are working together on this quest for info about / photos of Capt Davidson. It's not so much the medals we're trying to find as a collection of photos that went with the medals.

Having seen your above message, I've been trying to get in touch with the Yeomanry Benevolent Fund in the hope that they would be able to put me in touch with surviving family. So far no response.

(We have RAD's military record, MID, London Gazette mention, etc; and I've tracked his Light Car activities through the War Diaries. It's really these photos that we're missing, although I would be most grateful for any further information.)

Regards,

Russell

[Carmania]

Russell

I'll send you an email shortly, I might be able to be a bit of help.

Regards

Aled

[clive_hughes]

Back in the 1970s I remember chatting at length with a local pre-1914 Denbigh Yeoman and 24th RWF lewis gunner. Amongst other things he felt a little hard done-by that some sort of DYH regimental fund had been closed down and its assets distributed amongst those who were "in the know", but not him!

LST_164

[rmcguirk]

Back in the 1970s I remember chatting at length with a local pre-1914 Denbigh Yeoman and 24th RWF lewis gunner. Amongst other things he felt a little hard done-by that some sort of DYH regimental fund had been closed down and its assets distributed amongst those who were "in the know", but not him!

LST_164

LST_164

Thank you for your message. We've clearly come to this task about 40 yrs too late - I don't know if the man you spoke to was Davidson, but he was apparently there in your area throughout the '70s. (We understand he died in his mid-90s in 1980!)

Russell

[clive_hughes]

He was Pte Hugh Caulfield 3228 DYH, later 345417 24th RWF, and lived just down the road from me when I was growing up in Bangor,Gwynedd. He had the BWM, Victory, and Territorial Force War Medal together with a Defence Medal from the next war. He was a good boxer and earned a Divisional Mention in 1918.

He must have died about 1978-79 I think.

LST_164

[rmcguirk]

He was Pte Hugh Caulfield 3228 DYH, later 345417 24th RWF, and lived just down the road from me when I was growing up in Bangor,Gwynedd. He had the BWM, Victory, and Territorial Force War Medal together with a Defence Medal from the next war. He was a good boxer and earned a Divisional Mention in 1918.

He must have died about 1978-79 I think.

LST_164

An interesting man. I would assume he went to Egypt with the reg't in Mar '16, in which case he was probably in El-Alamein and/or Moghara Oasis. Can you recall if he mentioned having served in Egypt?

Russell

[Hywyn]

(We understand he died in his mid-90s in 1980!)

Russell

Ynys Mon. 3rd Qtr 1980 Vol 25 p691. Born 27/5/1886.

May assist in an obituary search if you go down that road.

Couldn't see anything in the Times.

Hywyn

[Mrstocking]

Nothing on his Medal Index Card re theatre of service!

An interesting man. I would assume he went to Egypt with the reg't in Mar '16, in which case he was probably in El-Alamein and/or Moghara Oasis. Can you recall if he mentioned having served in Egypt?

Russell

[rmcguirk]

Ynys Mon. 3rd Qtr 1980 Vol 25 p691. Born 27/5/1886.

May assist in an obituary search if you go down that road.

Couldn't see anything in the Times.

Hywyn

Hywyn,

Thank you for Davidson's dates. They could be helpful. I'm not surprised you couldn't find an obit for him in The Times. I'll try a newspaper from N Wales.

Regards,

Russell

[clive_hughes]

Nick,

because Caulfield was an Other Rank who entered a theatre of war after 1 January 1916, landing date wasn't usually mentioned on the MIC (I believe that the date was only included so as to verify entitlement for the 1914 or 1914-15 Stars, so wasn't necessary after 1916). With the exception of the new Welsh Horse, which made it to Gallipoli, all the other Welsh Yeomanries (Denbigh, Montgomery, Pembroke, and Glamorgan)didn't get abroad till landing in Egypt in March 1916.

He certainly served in the UK, Egypt, Palestine and on the Western Front. This might sound odd but somewhere I have a very amateur old tape recording of him talking about his experiences. I tried transcribing it but I wasn't doing very well - maybe I'm not a natural editor!

Thinking about the Western Desert, I seem to recollect that the Welsh Horse were also involved against the Senussi? The IWM London has (in the Dept. of Documents) a photo album including shots taken by one of their officers, I think, during the Western Desert campaign. Alas, they had been so badly exposed/printed that they had largely faded to near nothing as images.

Also in the Desert (and involving armoured cars) many Holyhead sailors were held by the Senussi after the torpedoing of HMS Tara in November 1915, until rescued by the Duke of Westminster's AC column the following March. There are various books about this, and I'm sure our two Holyhead members could add more.

LST_164

[Mrstocking]

I'm pleased to say there is a Davidson family tree on Ancestry. I include a photo of Davidson, have emailed his nephew and hope we may get some more photos direct from the family!

Hywyn,

Thank you for Davidson's dates. They could be helpful. I'm not surprised you couldn't find an obit for him in The Times. I'll try a newspaper from N Wales.

Regards,

Russell

[rmcguirk]

I'm pleased to say there is a Davidson family tree on Ancestry. I include a photo of Davidson, have emailed his nephew and hope we may get some more photos direct from the family!

That's brilliant, Nick!! Many, many thanks.

Russell

[rmcguirk]

Thinking about the Western Desert, I seem to recollect that the Welsh Horse were also involved against the Senussi? The IWM London has (in the Dept. of Documents) a photo album including shots taken by one of their officers, I think, during the Western Desert campaign. Alas, they had been so badly exposed/printed that they had largely faded to near nothing as images.

Also in the Desert (and involving armoured cars) many Holyhead sailors were held by the Senussi after the torpedoing of HMS Tara in November 1915, until rescued by the Duke of Westminster's AC column the following March. There are various books about this, and I'm sure our two Holyhead members could add more.

LST_164

I believe the Welsh Horse were mostly stuck on the Suez Canal, waiting for the Turks to return after their failed attack of early Feb '15. The other Welsh Yeo reg'ts arrived just as the main part of the campaign was ending, and wound up on guard duty in oases like Fayoum, Wadi Natrun and Moghara. Most of the excitement was had by those men who went off on secondment to the ICC and the Light Cars, but even they did not see much fighting. Two of the three Light Car teams at Girba/Siwa in Feb '17 were Welsh (Denbigh Yeo & Pembroke Yeo) -- when the remnants of the Sanusi army was finally forced to retreat back into Libya.

Regarding the IWM's faded photos of the Western Desert, I've seen them as well. As you say, not in good condition ... I found a better collection in the IWM - that of Major A S Hamilton, City of London Yeo (IWM 93/31/1) which also includes an interesting diary. The photos are small format, scarcely more than contact prints, but good quality and quite interesting.

Russell

[Hywyn]

You may already be aware of this collection at Flintshire Archives, Hawarden. When I enquired some years ago I was only interested in identifying men to service numers. I seem to recall they told me there was quite a bit of Officer material there.

ARMY

Records of Denbighshire Hussars Yeomanry, 76 Anti-Tank Regiment, (TA), 372 and 384 Light Regiments RA (RWF) TA. 1908 - 1958 TA/FD/1-73

MILITIA

Photograph of Denbighshire and Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. 1895 D/B/252

MILITIA

Notes on Flintshire and Denbighshire Yeomanry. 1967 NT/1103

Link

http://www.flintshire.gov.uk/wps/portal/english/!ut/p/c5/hY5Nc4IwFEV_0nshIYlLiCnFEmiAWGTDMKJWxg8WDo7--mK76Kr23uWZc-dCDVNP7bjftZf9-dQeoIKaN282z2eEM4K6UBgXyaJQmaW4ZBNf8QbLNKMPLn0iMJZORbmzRKb-P_YHVMiaopeDuV2q5K7Gsr9bNOX6aubBzfSamC5575a5C4OwoyT6nJz6sUoY08pqj6CjAr2S83CW-R4i_vBnn775HwkQ0tfzcQMrqMXv90iZF4y9hdByLhA5heHoxkFv1Rf0BDKs/dl3/d3/L0lDU0NsQ2xJSkpncHBpUW9LVVJvZ2tLQ2xFYUlKQ2dwUkEhIS9ZQTBJQUFJSU1DRUVBTU1LQ0tJSUdHSU9CQ0VBQUlBT0pJQkFKSUZORE5ERk5GSUlJTEhQSFBMSExJSUlBb2tva2dvZy80QzFiOVlBLUlOYjgydlNFSlRERVNaQ0pTaldfU0dNUkprSWxLTmI5STR4RW1RaVVvZyEhLzdfS1FSUjkxNjQxR0NNRjBJMko3RThENzAwNjMvdmlldy9ub3JtYWwvQ1VTQ2c1NDgwNjE2LzE0NzAwMDIzODAxNi9jdXJQYWdlLzIvUlVTQ2c1NDgwNjE3L0ZVU0NnNTQ4MDYxOA!!/

hmm that's a huge link. Hope it works. If not just google Flintshire Archives.

Hywyn

[Mrstocking]

I did a lot of research at Hawarden Records Office for my BA thesis on the Denbighshire Yeomanry, one of the most interesting documents was the Officers' Service Book covering the period up to 1920, literally like a big ledger with handwritten entries for promotions, etc and home addresses. Another interesting primary source is the large group of County of Flint War Memorial cards, a unique set of records for all men from Flintshire who served during the Great War, either filled in by the men themselves or the next of kin for deceased soldiers, the right hand corner of the card is missing for soldiers who died. Very often information is written on the cards not found on the Medal Index Cards.

You may already be aware of this collection at Flintshire Archives, Hawarden. When I enquired some years ago I was only interested in identifying men to service numers. I seem to recall they told me there was quite a bit of Officer material there.

ARMY

Records of Denbighshire Hussars Yeomanry, 76 Anti-Tank Regiment, (TA), 372 and 384 Light Regiments RA (RWF) TA. 1908 - 1958 TA/FD/1-73

MILITIA

Photograph of Denbighshire and Montgomeryshire Yeomanry. 1895 D/B/252

MILITIA

Notes on Flintshire and Denbighshire Yeomanry. 1967 NT/1103

Link

http://www.flintshir...NnNTQ4MDYxOA!!/

hmm that's a huge link. Hope it works. If not just google Flintshire Archives.

Hywyn

[Hywyn]

Nick

My main interest lie further west in identifying the men of central Caernarfonshire who served. As the dominant infantry was RWF I developed an interest in them in their entirity (i.e who served with them). As you will know trying to identify which 'John Jones' was which is a nightmare hence my scrabbling around looking for docs that identify a name and address to a number. Although, when I enquired at Hawarden, I was told there was no such lists for the DHY/later 24th RWF it may be that the staff didn't have time to look through the whole collection. Do you recall if such docs exist in this collection? Even the pre war list would be useful as a number of men, especially Bangor area, were pre war DHY men.

I see that the cards you mention are now on line. Sadly for my RWF research it's name and address but no number. Handy for educated guesses at the rarer surnames but back to square one with the 'John Jones' variety. I have it in mind eventually to try and view them and extract RWF material but it's after I have exhausted the Service/Pensions and died/wounded lists etc.

I'm actually near to completing an xl dataset of the 24th Roll of Honour from the Reg Records. It can then be sorted into date order/how died etc. Let me know if you haven't got it in this form. I see a substantial number were 'Died at Sea' on 15/4/1917 (also some 1st 5th men)but haven't yet begun researching which sinking it was. Any ideas?

Hywyn

Edit: I've just re read your post and note the existence of the Officers Book. A similar one for ORs' is what I'm after really.

[Mrstocking]

Hi Hywyn, there is an other ranks enlistment book for the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry. Again in ledger form with alphabetical tabs, from memory mans full name, his address and occupation on enlistment and his DY regimental number (I know these changed when they became 24th RWF).

I will post a copy page here for you to give you an idea of the format, later.

Nick.

[MBrockway]

I'm actually near to completing an xl dataset of the 24th Roll of Honour from the Reg Records. It can then be sorted into date order/how died etc. Let me know if you haven't got it in this form. I see a substantial number were 'Died at Sea' on 15/4/1917 (also some 1st 5th men)but haven't yet begun researching which sinking it was. Any ideas?

Hywyn

Hywyn,

That's probably in the loss of the troopship Arcadian en route from Salonika to Alexandria with reinforcements for Egypt. Torpedoed and sunk by U-boat UC 74 approx 26nm NE of the Island of Milo (modern Melos) in the Aegean.

Most of the 3/RWF, 5/RWF and 24/RWF casualties are commemorated on the Mikra Memorial or are buried in the Syra New British Cemetery.

Here's the historical notes section on the Mikra Memorial from the CWGC website ...

Within the cemetery will be found the MIKRA MEMORIAL, commemorating almost 500 nurses, officers and men of the Commonwealth forces who died when troop transports and hospital ships were lost in the Mediterranean, and who have no grave but the sea. They are commemorated here because others who went down in the same vessels were washed ashore and identified, and are now buried at Thessalonika. The ships were: .... HT "Arcadian" was torpedoed and sunk on 15 April 1917, 41.5 kilometres north east from the island of Milo (Melos), carrying reinforcements for Egypt. .....

and ditto for the SyraNew British Cemetery ...

Syra New British Cemetery was made in June 1921, to take the scattered Commonwealth war burials from the islands of the Cyclades. Graves were brought in from Amorghos (7); Antiparos(5); Ekinosa (9); Heraklia (26); Kassos (1); Ano Kouphonisia (1); French Consular Cemetery on Milo (Melos) (20); Naxos (2); Paros (1); Santorini (1); Skarpanto (Kerpe) (9); Stampalia (Astypalaa) (3); Syra British Consular Cemetery (12) and St. Trias Churchyard at Livadi, Zea (Keos) (1). More than half of the graves are those of men drowned when the Transport "Arcadian" was torpedoed and sunk on 15 April 1917 in the middle of this group of islands. There are now 111 First World War servicemen buried or commemorated in this cemetery. 45 of the burials are unidentified, but special memorials commemorate 11 casualties known to be buried among them. Three special memorials bear the names of casualties buried on Antiparos and Skarpanto whose graves had been washed away.

There's a very interesting survivor's account here:

Last voyage of the Arcadian by Trooper RC Higgins, East Riding Yeomanry

I did also find four men from 1st/6th RWF (x2), 7/RWF and 8/RWF who appear to have drowned in the loss of the Cameronia carrying reinforcements for Mesopotamia, torpedoed and sunk on 15 April 1917 east of Malta, with the loss of 127 officers and men. They are commemorated on the Chatby Memorial in Alexandria.

HTH

Cheers,

Mark

[Mrstocking]

An interesting family connection I picked up whilst researching at the Hawarden records office:

Rex Bloor DY regimental number 1163 enlisted on 15 November 1907. There is an interesting archive of real photo postcards which were used as missives between Rex and his wife, etc. His brother William also served in the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry, William Henry Bloor was a Sergeant with the regimental number 5065 at the outbreak of the Great War He was commissioned into the Royal Field Artillery and as a Captain was killed in action 3 January 1918. Their father was Alderman Henry Bloor.

Hi Hywyn, there is an other ranks enlistment book for the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry. Again in ledger form with alphabetical tabs, from memory mans full name, his address and occupation on enlistment and his DY regimental number (I know these changed when they became 24th RWF).
I will post a copy page here for you to give you an idea of the format, later.



Nick.

Edited 11 November , 2014 by Nick Peacock MA

[Hywyn]

Hi Hywyn, there is an other ranks enlistment book for the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry. Again in ledger form with alphabetical tabs, from memory mans full name, his address and occupation on enlistment and his DY regimental number (I know these changed when they became 24th RWF).

I will post a copy page here for you to give you an idea of the format, later.

Nick.

Thanks Nick.

I have PMd you my email.

Mark

Thanks for that research and the link provided. 27 men from the 24th Battalion, 2 from 3rd, 1 from 3rd Garrison and 3 from 5th lost with the Arcadian accordingto Geoffs Engine.

Hywyn

[Mrstocking]

I purchased another real photograph postcard off Ebay in the last week or so. It shows a Trooper of the Denbighsire Yeomanry at the annual camp at Rhyl in 1912. The seller believes there is a connection to the Bloor family and I wonder if this might be another brother, with the initials C.L.B. I believe a perusal of the enlistment book at Hawarden might shed some light on this. I will also try and find a MIC for this soldier.

An interesting family connection I picked up whilst researching at the Hawarden records office:

Rex Bloor DY regimental number 1163 enlisted on 15 November 1907. There is an interesting archive of real photo postcards which were used as missives between Rex and his wife, etc. His son William also served in the Denbigh Hussars Yeomanry, William Henry Bloor was a Sergeant with the regimental number 5065 at the outbreak of the Great War He was commissioned into the Royal Field Artillery and as a Captain was killed in action 3 January 1918.