Postcards

[Kath]

Thank you very much Ken & Alan.

FROGSMILE - Looks to be raining there - typical!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Kath said:

Thank you very much Ken & Alan.

FROGSMILE - Looks to be raining there - typical!

It certainly is Kath! 

[GWF1967]

On 17/06/2022 at 22:19, Bob Davies said:

Back to J F Mackenzie. I found 6 MICs, only one fits the bill as the rest are NCOs or KIA. Spr 87399 James F Mackenzie RE. Certainly a guess but it might be the man? I can find nothing more about him. Other experts may come up with more?

 

On 18/06/2022 at 02:33, Gunner 87 said:

Hi Bob. Found this on Fold3 which I hope may help. Gunner 87.

 

Many thanks for your help.

[Bob Davies]

23 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

On 17/06/2022 at 22:19, Bob Davies said:

Back to J F Mackenzie. I found 6 MICs, only one fits the bill as the rest are NCOs or KIA. Spr 87399 James F Mackenzie RE. Certainly a guess but it might be the man? I can find nothing more about him. Other experts may come up with more?

 

On 18/06/2022 at 02:33, Gunner 87 said:

Hi Bob. Found this on Fold3 which I hope may help. Gunner 87.

 

Many thanks for your help.

Thanks @Gunner 87 and @GWF1967  I am struggling to find anything to link him to Dar es Salaam!

[GWF1967]

"A.C. Whiting. 29/8/15. A.S.C.  - M2/081775 (Fitter) 364th Coy".   -  Arthur Charles Whiting.  Enl. 3/5/15.  F+F. 22/5/15.   Disch. 27/3/18. - Silver War Badge No. 372377.

"J.E. Baker 079,401.  31/7/15  Rouen. (Fitter) 364th Coy".   -  Acting Staff Sergeant, John Edward Baker. M2/079401.  F+F. 26/5/15.

"M2/053795. 364 Coy ASC, M.T. B.E.F. France.  Mr. Bert Willcox. 9 Orchard Street, Greenheys Lane, Manchester"  - Albert Willcox.  F+F 22/5/15. 

[GreyC]

Hi all,

this photo of soldiers and civilian relatives was taken by a Weymouth photographer. Could anybody please enlighten me with regards to the unit?

I´d also be interested in the insignia of the sergeant on his sleeve. They seem to be a marksman distinction and a wound stripe? I´d appreciate any information on how the marksman distinction was won?

Thank you!

[squirrel]

I´d appreciate any information on how the marksman distinction was won?

 

Passed as a first class shot on his annual musketry assessment - had to qualify each year to retain the badge.

[GreyC]

Hi squirrel,

thank you for responding. Interesting, that he had to requalify every year.

Best,

GreyC

[Mike_H]

Wiltshire Regiment

[GreyC]

Hi Mike,

as it looks like sommer in the picture it should then be the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion.

Thanks a lot!

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, GreyC said:

Hi all,

this photo of soldiers and civilian relatives was taken by a Weymouth photographer. Could anybody please enlighten me with regards to the unit?

I´d also be interested in the insignia of the sergeant on his sleeve. They seem to be a marksman distinction and a wound stripe? I´d appreciate any information on how the marksman distinction was won?

Thank you!

Each year all infantrymen**, including the Foot Guards regiments, were required to fire their rifles in the Annual Classification shoot, which was a rifle practice comprising several phases with a set number of rounds.  All those who achieved above a certain score became qualified as marksmen, for which they received the crossed rifles badge and extra pay (from memory only I think this was one penny extra per day for the succeeding year).  The process had to be repeated and a similar superior score achieved for the extra payment to continue.  This led to a certain degree of pressure, especially for the married men, for whose wives the extra pennies were important, especially if there were children.

The Trained Soldiers annual classification with the rifle consisted of 250 rounds fired at ranges from 100 to 600 yards, with the firer kneeling or lying, for some practices with bayonets fixed, and with a so-called 'mad minute' when he fired 15 rounds rapid at a target 300 yards away. Part III of the classification shoot decided a man's marksmanship standard. He fired fifty rounds from various ranges (distances) at a target with three scoring rings, earning 4 points for a 'bull' (24 inches wide), 3 points for an 'inner' and 2 points for an 'outer'. The highest possible score was 200 points, and to qualify as a marksman a soldier needed 130 points; 105 made him a first-class shot, and 70 a second-class shot.

Marksmanship did not simply consist of shooting on the range, but also included judging distance and understanding enough theory of small arms fire to be able to aim off for wind or at a moving target, and to understand what was meant by the 'beaten zone' covered by fire at any given range. Rifles were 'zeroed' (correlated) to individual firers, and the rifles butt number (ID) was recorded in a soldiers personal record, his 'small book'.  Marksmanship badges of crossed rifles were worn by all marksmen below the rank of warrant officer (as at 1914) and their were special distinctions for the best shot in each company (crossed rifles and star up to JNCO, crossed rifles and crown up to SNCO) and the battalion's JNCOs competed for a crossed rifles and star within a laurel wreath and its SNCOs for a crossed rifles and crown within a laurel wreath. In theory an individual could bear several of these badges simultaneously and the seriousness with which they were regarded is plain.

Field Service Regulations defined ranges (distances) of 600 yards and under as 'close', 600 to 1,400 yards as 'effective', 1,400 to 2,000 yards as 'long' and 2,000 to 2,800 yards (which required a special sight fitted to the Mark III SMLE) as 'distant'.

**cavalry especially, plus some other arms, were also required to shoot to varying degrees.

Edited 23 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Great stuff, Bob!

Copied that into my folder of German marksman competions. Very interesting to compare.

In Germany there were competions for individual marksmanship in different branches of the army and different competions among the German regiments within each of the Army Corps. For the regiments there were seperate competitions eg for MG, artillery and cavalry units even for naval artillery. For the regiments of which the Emporer was chief (7 or 8 in all of Germany, including Bavaria, Saxony, etc.) there was an additional competition for the Chefschnur - the Chief´s cord.

Whereas the individual marksmanship badges until 1894 were stripes in different breadths to be worn on the sleeve, from 1894 on they were changed to so called Schießschnüre or Schützenschnüren (cords)  in different versions according to the grade accquired (12 possible) and the branch of service the competion was held in (Infantry, artillery and special shooting schools).

The competion for the best regiment, or to be correct the best company of a regiment within an Armeekorps (there were XXII Armeekorps at the beginning of the war) was called Kaiserabzeichen for the  Prussian units and those under Prussian supervision and Königsabzeichen in Württemberg, Bavaria and Saxony. It was handed out yearly to the best company from 1895-1913.

And then there was the competion, as mentioned above, for the Chief´s cord, a yellow cord to be worn a bit different from the Schützenschnur.

All competitions on a regimental basis were highly prestigeous and an award gave a boost to the careers of the officers in charge of the victorious company. Thus there were some cases of fraud involved, which were scandalous, of course.

To go into deeper detail would require much more time and space and would probably bore people anyway.

You might find the attached photos helpful:

1) Individual marksmanship 2nd (of 12 grades possible) grade proficiency stripes prior to 1894. Two small stripes.

2.) Individual marksmanship 3rd grade after 1894, gained at a special shooting school (4th, longer thread denoting that)

3) Individual marksmanship 1st grade (of 12) cord for a cavalry soldier who wore them on the other side so as not to hinder the arm that held the sword etc. Note the V on his sleeve, also a proficiency badge, this for fencing.

4) A soldier of 31. IR, 5th company which won the Kaiserpreis-badge for best company within an Armycorps a record five times. The badge shows crossed rifles within an oak leaf wreath.

5) A NCO of the Bavarian 6th IR (infantry regiment) whose chief the German emporer was sporting his yellow cord with crossed swords and the imperial crown.

 

 

 

Edited 23 June , 2022 by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/06/2022 at 21:50, GreyC said:

Schützenschnüren

Thank you GreyC, I only knew about the basic purpose of the “Schützenschnüren” and comparing the detailed shooting requirements is interesting as you say. I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

The Gew 98 Mauser was actually a more accurate rifle over distance, but the design of the SMLE bolt mechanism made a difference on occasions when rapid fire was required and added another dimension to the different facets of skill-at-arms.  

Edited 25 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

A pleasure, Bob.

Have a nice weekend!

GreyC

[charlie962]

On 21/05/2022 at 00:43, GWF1967 said:

61409 Pte.  Harry German,  38th Coy. M.G.C.  Mesop Expd Force"

Overseas 18/9/1915. - Pte.18548,  6th Battalion, Loyal North Lancs.

The fact he carries 3 overseas service chevrons dates the photo. But I note he was wounded per cas list 20/5/16, so should have a wound stripe. Whatever he had on his left sleeve is erased- deliberate or accident ??

Charlie

[charlie962]

On 17/06/2022 at 23:19, Bob Davies said:

On 02/06/2022 at 23:54, GWF1967 said:

J.F. Mackenzie? - Main Detail Camp,  Dar es Salaam,  Dec 1918" 

Cap badge id, corrections and observations welcome. 

Expand  

Back to J F Mackenzie

Are you sure it is JF and not J.T. ?

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Are you sure it is JF and not J.T. ?

No. I'm open to persuasion.

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, GreyC said:

A pleasure, Bob.

Have a nice weekend!

GreyC

I forgot to mention that he has also covered his second button down with black gauze as an unofficial, but tolerated mark of mourning a family member.

Edited 25 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Well spotted, thank you! Didn´t know this. In Germany they would wear a black cuffband and if the relative was a soldier the black cuffband would have an Iron Cross on it.

Have a good Sunday!

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, GreyC said:

Well spotted, thank you! Didn´t know this. In Germany they would wear a black cuffband and if the relative was a soldier the black cuffband would have an Iron Cross on it.

Have a good Sunday!

GreyC

Thank you GreyC I did not know about the German mourning practice either and I’ve never yet seen a photograph.  What you describe seems sensible and officially sanctioned.  The British soldiers method was unofficial and described as a “mourning button” and if you put that term in the forum search facility you will find hundreds of photos posted over the years.

There was also a system of official black arm bands in the British Army, but only to be worn when “official mourning” is declared by the authorities, usually following the death of a Royal Family member or a government dignitary.  In such cases the officers, and those senior ranking men who march outside the ranks, wear black crepe arm bands on the left upper arm, but men inside the ranks do not.  They may, however, be worn by individuals of all ranks at family funerals.

NB.  Both General officers in the photo below wear the black crepe armband.

 

Edited 26 June , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

 

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I did not know about the German mourning practice either and I’ve never yet seen a photograph.  

Hi Bob,

thank you for the explanation and photo.

To remedy the above here are two examples, one with and one without the Iron Cross on the mourning armband.

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, GreyC said:

 

Hi Bob,

thank you for the explanation and photo.

To remedy the above here are two examples, one with and one without the Iron Cross on the mourning armband.

 

Thank you GreyC, it seems extraordinary that I’ve never seen such photos before.  Yet again it emphasises the things that we had in common.  Mourning - an international language as it were.

[GWF1967]

On 17/06/2022 at 20:46, Bob Davies said:

 Did you find the postcard local to where you live?

Hi Bob,

 It pays to double check!  The seller is actually from Ludlow, so Ned looks a very good fit for the Shifnall man you found. 

[GreyC]

Well put, Frogsmile.

GreyC

Edited 26 June , 2022 by GreyC

[Bob Davies]

14 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Hi Bob,

 It pays to double check!  The seller is actually from Ludlow, so Ned looks a very good fit for the Shifnall man you found. 

Thanks for letting me know GWF1967. Let's hope we have found him :-)