Postcards

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear GWF1967,

Ah, Gamekeeper! 77th SB.

Many thanks...

Kindest regards,

Kim.

Edited 10 October , 2021 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[mrC60]

I can give no information on the photo save that the x marks 237 SHY Trumpet Major Whitehill again. 

I don't know where this was taken and if it was before or after Gallipoli. Can anyone help with any suggestions please? 

[Gardenerbill]

9 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Royal Engineers.

There's a shop sign just above the soldiers heads, looks like "Bayland Brothers" although the first 2 letters are obscured.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, mrC60 said:

I can give no information on the photo save that the x marks 237 SHY Trumpet Major Whitehill again. 

I don't know where this was taken and if it was before or after Gallipoli. Can anyone help with any suggestions please? 

Given the relaxed postures, dress, and apparent lack of arms anywhere in sight, it’s almost certainly a pre-deployment overseas, or even pre-war training camp photo.  My bet would be on the latter.

[Pat Atkins]

On 10/10/2021 at 10:14, mrC60 said:

I can give no information on the photo save that the x marks 237 SHY Trumpet Major Whitehill again. 

I don't know where this was taken and if it was before or after Gallipoli. Can anyone help with any suggestions please? 

For those who, like myself, are largely ignorant of such matters there's a very informative thread started by Andrew Upton here which discusses inter alia the three-button tunic cuffs of the Scottish Horse (and Lovat Scouts ORs) evident in this postcard.  

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

For those who, like myself, are largely ignorant of such matters there's a very informative thread started by Andrew Upton here which discusses inter alia the three-button tunic cuffs of the Scottish Horse (and Lovat Scouts ORs) evident in this postcard.  

Yes and the complete absence of a cutaway front too, as is normal for a yeomanry cavalry unit, even in Scotland.

Edited 11 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

The attached postcard ultimately came down to me from my grandfather.  I have no information about it, but possibly there is a Sherwood Foresters  connection. I presume it will date from late 1914 if it relates to my grandfather, if not possibly  a little later. I haven’t been able to recognise anyone on it, but that is not my  strong point.  If most of those pictured acquired a copy there might be a few around!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, apt50 said:

The attached postcard ultimately came down to me from my grandfather.  I have no information about it, but possibly there is a Sherwood Foresters  connection. I presume it will date from late 1914 if it relates to my grandfather, if not possibly  a little later. I haven’t been able to recognise anyone on it, but that is not my  strong point.  If most of those pictured acquired a copy there might be a few around!

 

They are indeed Sherwood Foresters and it appears to be a pre war photo taken on an embankment below what seems to be a railway station.  The sergeant seated crossed legged with hands on knees, far right in the front row, is wearing an older type 1902 jacket and cloth shoulder title that was replaced circa 1907.  The majority of the remaining SNCOs have the new metal shoulder titles of that year.  It appears to be a Volunteer Battalion (VB) shortly before the creation of the Territorial Force (TF) formed to replace it in 1908.  Some men further right can be seen with the cloth titles with the letter V (for volunteers) beneath (in place of the regulars number 1 in the image below).  
See: https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com

NB.  The absence of wound stripes, medal ribbons and overseas service chevrons provides additional evidence, alongside the uniform features mentioned, that the photo is pre-war.  I would date the photo to around 1907-08.  It’s not impossible that it’s 1914, but there are rather a lot of obsolescent uniform features (although that might be through men rejoining after fallow periods of personal commitment - i.e. not attending drills - a common occurrence).

Edited 13 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

Many thanks to FROGSMILE for his informative reply. I am left baffled. I had a great great uncle who finished his career as a colour sergeant attached to the 3rd Battalion, but he was discharged in 1901 and I believe the 3rd was originally Militia. After that I thought the next connection with the Sherwood Foresters came in the great War. I have some thinking to do.

[FROGSMILE]

57 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Many thanks to FROGSMILE for his informative reply. I am left baffled. I had a great great uncle who finished his career as a colour sergeant attached to the 3rd Battalion, but he was discharged in 1901 and I believe the 3rd was originally Militia. After that I thought the next connection with the Sherwood Foresters came in the great War. I have some thinking to do.

The 3rd Battalion were indeed Militia until 1908, but in 1901 the shoulder title was ‘DERBY’.  The titles in the photo are the post 1902 two-row type, as shown.  Thus the photo certainly dates to after the brass titles of 1907.

As a former militiaman, and a SNCO to boot, he was quite probably encouraged to re-engage to assist with training and administration.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The 3rd Battalion were indeed Militia until 1908, but in 1901 the shoulder title was ‘DERBY’.  The titles in the photo are the post 1902 two-row type, as shown.  Thus the photo certainly dates to after the brass titles of 1907.

As a former militiaman, and a SNCO to boot, he was quite probably encouraged to re-engage to assist with training and administration.

Thank you for your further reply. Before attachment to the 3rd Battalion, my great great uncle had been with the 2nd Battalion. In 1911 he was a pensioner recruiter in London.

When I first saw the photograph, knowing even less of military matters than the little I know now, I thought the photograph probably dated to when my grandfather was undergoing his initial training. He enlisted on September 1st in Nottingham and after two days leave went to Normanton Barracks. On September 7th he was detailed to the 4th Battalion Sherwood Foresters at Backworth, being billeted subsequently in Tynemouth and Whitley Bay (November 1st). He went back to Backworth at the end of November. While I think the matter is already settled, for my certainty I would be grateful for confirmation that my original assumption is  incorrect.

To remain within the spirit of the thread,  I will attach a scan of a postcard I bought from a commercial seller on Ebay a couple of years ago. While taken a couple of months before my grandfather arrived in Whitley Bay, it caught my interest. As a purchased card I know nothing of the men marked with an ’X’.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for your further reply. Before attachment to the 3rd Battalion, my great great uncle had been with the 2nd Battalion. In 1911 he was a pensioner recruiter in London.

 

When I first saw the photograph, knowing even less of military matters than the little I know now, I thought the photograph probably dated to when my grandfather was undergoing his initial training. He enlisted on September 1st in Nottingham and after two days leave went to Normanton Barracks. On September 7th he was detailed to the 4th Battalion Sherwood Foresters at Backworth, being billeted subsequently in Tynemouth and Whitley Bay (November 1st). He went back to Backworth at the end of November. While I think the matter is already settled, for my certainty I would be grateful for confirmation that my original assumption is  incorrect.

 

To remain within the spirit of the thread,  I will attach a scan of a postcard I bought from a commercial seller on Ebay a couple of years ago. While taken a couple of months before my grandfather arrived in Whitley Bay, it caught my interest. As a purchased card I know nothing of the men marked with an ’X’.

 

The mixture of civilian hats with obsolescent scarlet frocks and officers with open stepped collars to their khaki service dress (phased in 1912-13) indicates that the photo shows an auxiliary, reserve unit, in this case the 4th Extra Reserve Battalion (formerly the Royal Sherwood Foresters Militia) just forming up in whatever uniform they had to hand.  A depot/training unit, they moved to Sunderland in August 1914.  Your photo seems to show them at an early muster parade beforehand.  The Extra Reserve were, like the Special Reserve, supposed to provide battle casualty replacements for the regular battalions, but in addition had a discrete and specified home defence role upon mobilisation (in several cases to defend islands off the coast of Britain).  Your photo seems to demonstrate how poorly prepared and equipped some ER units were to meet that aim.  Indeed it reminds me of the British Army today should there ever be a mobilisation.  Plus ça change!

As regards the dates you have quoted I am a little confused as you have not specified the years that you are referring to.  There’s also a difference between enlisted/joined and mobilised and I’m not sure what you meant.

Each regional command had two small teams of Pensioner Recruiters, one located at each of the two, numbered District HQs subordinate to the Command.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The mixture of civilian hats with obsolescent scarlet frocks and officers with open stepped collars to their khaki service dress (phased in 1912-13) indicates that the photo shows either, an auxiliary, reserve unit, in this case the 4th Extra Reserve Battalion (formerly the Royal Sherwood Foresters Militia) just forming up in whatever uniform they had to hand.  A depot/training unit, they moved to Sunderland in August 1914.  Your photo seems to show them at an early muster parade beforehand.  The Extra Reserve were like the Special Reserve supposed to provide battle casualty replacements for the regular battalions but in addition had a discrete and specified home defence role upon mobilisation.  Your photo seems to demonstrate how poorly prepared and equipped some ER units were to meet that aim.  Indeed it reminds me of the British Army today should there ever be a mobilisation.  Plus ça change!

As regards the dates you have quoted I am a little confused as you have not specified the years that you are referring to.  There’s also a difference between enlisted/joined and mobilised and I’m not sure what you meant.

Each regional command had two small teams of Pensioner Recruiters, one located at each of the two, numbered District HQs subordinate to the Command.

Thank you for your comments and for the information about Pensioner Recruiter. Apologies for omitting the year, which was 1914. My grandfather's attestation form is dated 1st September 1914, his statement of service says he joined on 1st September 1914, was posted 'D' (Depot?) 4th September 1914, was posted '4' on 8th September 1914 and was posted to the 1st on 24th December 1914. Dates for his travels around Tyneside came from his sparse notes in pencil..

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for your comments and for the information about Pensioner Recruiter. Apologies for omitting the year, which was 1914. My grandfather's attestation form is dated 1st September 1914, his statement of service says he joined on 1st September 1914, was posted 'D' (Depot?) 4th September 1914, was posted '4' on 8th September 1914 and was posted to the 1st on 24th December 1914. Dates for his travels around Tyneside came from his sparse notes in pencil..

That all fits with your interpretation I think.  I agree D  = regimental depot (a commonly used abbreviation on such records) and the 4 relates to the 4th Extra Reserve Battalion (formerly militia) that moved to Sunderland on mobilisation.  The 1st can only mean the 1st regular Battalion unless it was the 1st of a fraction such as 1/5th ( i.e. first line to 2/5th, 3/5th Territorial Force).  He was very old to be joining the 1st Battalion and I cannot imagine that he went with them to France, although some older veterans did manage to wangle their way on board the embarkation.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That all fits with your interpretation I think.  I agree D  = regimental depot and the 4 relates to the 4th Extra Reserve Battalion (formerly militia) that moved to Sunderland on mobilisation.  The 1st can only mean the 1st regular Battalion unless it was the 1st of a fraction such as 1/5th ( i.e. first line to 2/5th, 3/5th Territorial Force).  He was very old to be joining the 1st Battalion and I cannot imagine that he went with them to France, although some older veterans did manage to wangle their way on board the embarkation.

Apologies again, for switching back and forwards too much between my grandfather and his uncle. It was my grandfather who joined in 1914 and it was the 1st regular Battalion.

I am still having difficulties working out why my grandfather went the way he did, while an older brother and also someone who eventually became his uncle by marriage (long families) joined at the same time and same place - in fact my grandfather's brother and my grandfather had consecutive numbers- but went to the !0th Service Battalion.

 

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Apologies again, for switching back and forwards too much between my grandfather and his uncle. It was my grandfather who joined in 1914 and it was the 1st regular Battalion.

I am still having difficulties working out why my grandfather went the way he did, while an older brother and also someone who eventually became his uncle by marriage (long families) joined at the same time and same place - in fact my grandfather's brother and my grandfather had consecutive numbers- but went to the !0th Service Battalion.

 

I’m sorry, I did not pick up on your switch between grandfather and his uncle.

As regards the mobilisation, consecutive regimental numbers, but different battalions, I can only assume that the regimental depots sent their drafts of reinforcements wherever they were needed, just as they had done pre-war in peacetime.  It wasn’t unusual to take a nominal roll of 20 men and post the first 10 to one unit and the second 10 to another, things were done in a relatively simple way.  It wasn’t until later, when the infantry base depot (IBD) system was set up in France, that things became more sophisticated due to the sheer scale of numbers and effort required to maintain the Army in the field.

Edited 14 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

a mix of Montgomeryshire and Glamorgan Yeomanry.

Edited 15 October , 2021 by GWF1967

[GWF1967]

Glamorgan Yeomanry band. (Thanks Frogsmile)

 Photograph by "J. Clark. Artist, Photographer and Picture Frame Maker, 13 High Street., Brecon". 

Edited 15 October , 2021 by GWF1967

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Montgomeryshire Yeomanry, with men from the Welsh Regiment.

I think that the other unit might be the Glamorgan or even Pembrokeshire Yeomanry, rather than the Welsh Regiment.  Looking at the photo carefully my bet would be on the former.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Welsh Regiment band.

 Photograph by "J. Clark. Artist, Photographer and Picture Frame Maker, 13 High Street., Brecon". 

Again, I think that these are probably Yeomanry.  As well as bandolier equipment, they appear to be wearing spurs with leather instep guards, and if they were infantry they’d be in column of fours and carrying their rifles at the slope.  However, I’m looking on a phone screen and others might have a better view.

Edited 15 October , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Again, I think that these are probably Yeomanry.  I’m looking on a phone screen and others might have a better view.

You appear to be correct on both. Thanks for looking.

[Jerry B]

a great card. agree with froggy, pembs or glam rather than welsh

[Jerry B]

T4 welsh with two versions of the bandman's badge, attached images from edwards and langley

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/10/2021 at 10:41, Jerry B said:

T4 welsh with two versions of the bandman's badge, attached images from edwards and langley

An interesting photo that shows the Austrian style of field service cap for other ranks very well.  Notice how casually it was worn in the field when compared with the smarter appearance that developed for in barracks wear.  Also at the very rear is a soldier who appears to be wearing the rarely seen Welsh Regiment insignia of a simple Prince of Wales’s feathers without title scroll.

Since the excellent book on trade and skill at arms badges was published a metal version of the bandsman’s badge has been seen in collections contrary to what was first thought.

 

Edited 8 December , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

I found this framed photograph by “Starr & Rignall. Cambridge & Ely”, showing Royal Artillery Territorials in an Aberystwyth Antique shop today. 

It was behind a dresser, and was really dirty. The backing had come away allowing dust and insects to enter. I had to remove it from the frame to clean the inside of the glass, happily the photograph is unmarked. 
 The name of the building is unreadable, but the poster on the wall reads; “ Preliminary Notice. 1/1st Welsh Division Boxing Tournament. Cambridge. ?6. 10. 1915”

Boer War ribbons on the man left of centre, front row. Efficiency Stars on the Sgt. second from left.

Proficiency Stars and a Boer War? ribbon on the man, rear row, third from left.  
Plenty of trade/appointment badges & Imperial Service Tablets on show. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 October , 2021 by GWF1967