Postcards

[Muerrisch]

Good spot ..... this portrait is a goldmine.

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Good spot ..... this portrait is a goldmine.

Yes, it’s excellent and portrays very well I think that many of the TF Battalions around that time had rather mature sergeants’ messes that would have struggled to complete a route march intact.

Edited 16 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Not certain if this is permitted ... whilst browsing ebay earlier this morning I came across this beautiful photo of a Colour Serg't in the Worcestershire Reg't. His insignia is clear & he is wearing the 2 Boer war medals.

 

Wondered if any of our members might collect to that Reg't?

 

If so here is link ----https://www.ebay.ca/itm/WWI-RPPC-Colour-Sergeant-in-Worcestershire-Regiment-with-Boer-War-Medals/353054914137?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

Reverse of Card,,,,

Edited 19 April , 2020 by RNCVR
.

[GWF1967]

7th R.W.F. T.F.  Camp.   

Five point stars, crossed rifles with star?, Imperial Service badges, wristwatch, and a pay book on show.

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

7th R.W.F. T.F.  Camp.   

Five point stars, crossed rifles with star?, Imperial Service badges, wristwatch, and a pay book on show.

 

 

A small point, but that is unlikely to be an AB64 Pay Book (especially so if that is a pre-war image) - with the very light coloured cover it is far more likely to be the Soldiers' Small Book, or similar, eg:

 

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

7th R.W.F. T.F.  Camp.   

Five point stars, crossed rifles with star?, Imperial Service badges, wristwatch, and a pay book on show.

 

That’s a super photo, thank you for posting it.  Another interesting feature is the right hand soldier recumbent on the ground who is wearing a 1905 coloured forage cap and holding a Malacca cane swagger stick in his left hand.  This type of swagger stick usually implied a man who had served with a battalion that had seen service in the East, or South Asia, although of course he might have gained it from someone else.

 

The star over crossed rifles indicates the best shot in his company.

Edited 24 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Interesting about the cane - and just saved me from asking yet another "What's that..?" question! Thanks. I love detail in the photos on here, and the clarity of some (most) has been a real surprise.

 

Pat

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Interesting about the cane - and just saved me from asking yet another "What's that..?" question! Thanks. I love detail in the photos on here, and the clarity of some (most) has been a real surprise.

 

Pat

Yes, it’s interesting.  I think that the combination of cap and cane is not accidental (i.e. to replace a lost SD cap) and suggests perhaps that the 7th Battalion laid down best cap and stick for walking-out at annual camp.  The working day at training camp was deliberately short and commenced with an early start, but usually concluded mid-afternoon, followed by the last meal around 4pm, and then walking out time with soldiers returning by tattoo. Walking-out and flirting with local girls (relatively innocently by contemporary standards) was a very popular feature of annual camp for the young men that usually made up the bulk of successfully recruited TF battalions.

Edited 24 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s a super photo, thank you for posting it.  Another interesting feature is the right hand soldier recumbent on the ground who is wearing a 1905 coloured forage cap and holding a Malacca cane swagger stick in his left hand.  This type of swagger stick usually implied a man who had served with a battalion that had seen service in the East, or South Asia, although of course he might have gained it from someone else.

 

The star over crossed rifles indicates the best shot in his company.

Many thanks, as always, for the informative reply. 

10 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

A small point, but that is unlikely to be an AB64 Pay Book (especially so if that is a pre-war image) - with the very light coloured cover it is far more likely to be the Soldiers' Small Book, or similar, eg:

 

Thank you. 

[tullybrone]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, it’s interesting.  I think that the combination of cap and cane is not accidental (i.e. to replace a lost SD cap) and suggests perhaps that the 7th Battalion laid down best cap and stick for walking-out at annual camp.  The working day at training camp was deliberately short and commenced with an early start, but usually concluded mid-afternoon, followed by the last meal around 4pm, and then walking out time with soldiers returning by tattoo. Walking-out and flirting with local girls (relatively innocently by contemporary standards) was a very popular feature of annual camp for the young men that usually made up the bulk of successfully recruited TF battalions.

Hi,

 

It looks to me like a handful of men in the rear rank are wearing what appears to be the Imperial Service badge above their left tunic pocket?

 

Does that help to date the photo?

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

It looks to me like a handful of men in the rear rank are wearing what appears to be the Imperial Service badge above their left tunic pocket?

 

Does that help to date the photo?

 

Steve

 

The tablet (badge) was instituted in 1910, Steve.  There's nothing in their dress that dates it more specifically than between 1910 and 1914.  Indeed a great many units were at their annual Summer camp in 1914 when the mobilisation order came through.  However, they were such significant milestones in the history of TF battalions that the location of camp each year was usually recorded, so if there were a photographers mark that could tally up it would be possible to tell the date.

Edited 24 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Re the IS tablet, I wonder how in theory a TF battalion would have made up the numbers of those who, for whatever reason, did not volunteer for overseas service?

[kenf48]

6 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

I wonder how in theory a TF battalion would have made up the numbers of those who, for whatever reason, did not volunteer for overseas service?

 

The 42nd Division was up to establishment but when it arrived in Egypt in September 1914 the GOC there, found '100 men blind, 1,500 swarming with lice one dying of Bright's disease and hundreds so badly vaccinated they could hardly move' One officer commented that he believed the Division 'had picked up any corner boy or loafer they could find to make up their numbers'.  Cited in 'A Nation in Arms' where the issue is discussed at some length.  It was not a theory but practical steps taken to bring the Battalions up to a wartime establishment fit to serve overseas.  Though of course the Territorial Associations were competing for recruits with 'Kitchener men'.

 

Most Battalions were below their wartime establishment when war was declared, and prior to August 1914 only five had expressed a willingness to serve overseas.

On 10 August complete units were invited to volunteer for Imperial Service, on 21 August where units were at least 80% had volunteered were authorised to recruit up to wartime establishment.   Two or more units who had not reached 80% were authorised to combine to produce service units. 

This was unsuccessful and on the 31 August the War Office authorised those units where 60% of the first line had volunteered to create a second line or reserve unit.

 

Ken

[Pat Atkins]

Fascinating - thanks, Ken. I'd just assumed the TF had a prepared response to what must have been an anticipated shortfall. In fairness, hard to see what they could have done, though.

[tullybrone]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The tablet (badge) was instituted in 1910, Steve.  There's nothing in their dress that dates it more specifically than between 1910 and 1914.  Indeed a great many units were at their annual Summer camp in 1914 when the mobilisation order came through.  However, they were such significant milestones in the history of TF battalions that the location of camp each year was usually recorded, so if there were a photographers mark that could tally up it would be possible to tell the date.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I presume that TF optional Imperial Service was an extension of the previous Militia Reserve option?

 

I have a distant relative who signed up

for Militia Reserve in 1896 and found himself posted to a Regular Army Battalion in South Africa 1900/1902.

 

I also recall that Militia Battalions went to Ireland during the Boer War to release regular Battalions for South Africa.

 

I think I know the answer to

this one - as TF was a separate entity to Regular Army - but was the initial concept of TF Imperial Service that “whole” TF units (either complete Battalions or composite units of men from various Battalions) should serve as Garrison Troops around the Empire to free up Regular Army troops?

 

Or was there also a proviso that - like under MR scheme -  men could be posted as reinforcements to Regular Army - or did SR solely take on MR reinforcement role?

 

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, tullybrone said:

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I presume that TF optional Imperial Service was an extension of the previous Militia Reserve option?

 

I have a distant relative who signed up

for Militia Reserve in 1896 and found himself posted to a Regular Army Battalion in South Africa 1900/1902.

 

I also recall that Militia Battalions went to Ireland during the Boer War to release regular Battalions for South Africa.

 

I think I know the answer to

this one - as TF was a separate entity to Regular Army - but was the initial concept of TF Imperial Service that “whole” TF units (either complete Battalions or composite units of men from various Battalions) should serve as Garrison Troops around the Empire to free up Regular Army troops?

 

Or was there also a proviso that - like under MR scheme -  men could be posted as reinforcements to Regular Army - or did SR solely take on MR reinforcement role?

 

Steve

 

Lord Haldane was responsible for reforming the auxiliary forces because overall things had not gone well in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, with both the Militia and the Volunteer Battalions coming up short from the point of view of the amount of money invested in them as against what strength in numbers was actually provided to support the regular army.  My understanding Steve, is that when the TF was formed in 1908 its terms and conditions of service explicitly stated for Home Defence as formed units (i.e. not individual reinforcements).  Conversely, the Special and Extra Reserve (ex Militia) Battalions were supposed to reinforce the Regular Battalions of their respective regiments.  
 

By 1910 there was a feeling that a war in Europe was becoming increasingly likely and it was apparent that there had not been a long enough period to build up sufficient reserves for what the Regular Army would actually need.  It was realised that as much had been made of the Home Defence rationale for the TF, getting its entire strength to commit to overseas ('Imperial') service was unlikely, so a less ambitious scheme to obtain a proportionate number of volunteers was devised instead.  
 

The badge (tablet) was in typical British fashion a mark of recognition seen as sufficiently inexpensive to warrant the expense to the overall defence vote ('war office estimates').  When push came to shove in 1914 getting entire TF units to sign up to the voluntary overseas commitment proved impossible and for that reason the system of 1st and 2nd line units was created, with those men willing to serve overseas going into the 1st line and those men wishing to remain on home defence going into the 2nd Line.  This proved complicated and some regiments had more men willing for overseas service than others, which led to some internal (to the army) wrangling that today might be described as a subtle form of public shaming. 
 

However, as a whole the army was careful not to publicly criticise men who remained committed to home service, conscious as they were that any kind of volunteer was better than a pressed man, and that many of the men committed only to home defence had home commitments, including wives, families and land holdings that made it unreasonable to expect them to be among the first to volunteer to fight on the European continent.

Edited 24 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[tullybrone]

31 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Lord Haldane was responsible for reforming the auxiliary forces because overall things had not gone well in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, with both the Militia and the Volunteer Battalions coming up short from the point of view of the amount of money invested in them as against what strength in numbers was actually provided to support the regular army.  My understanding Steve, is that when the TF was formed in 1908 its terms and conditions of service explicitly stated for Home Defence as formed units (i.e. not individual reiniforcements).  Conversely, the Special and Extra Reserve (ex Militia) Battalions were supposed to reinforce the Regular Battalions of their respective regiments.  
 

By 1910 there was a feeling that a war in Europe was becoming increasingly likely and it was realised that there had not been a long enough period to build up sufficient reserves for what the Regular Army would actually need.  It was realised that as much had been made of the Home Defence rationale for the TF, getting its entire strength to commit to overseas ('Imperial') service was unlikely, so a less ambitious scheme to obtain a proportionate number of volunteers was devised instead.  
 

The badge (tablet) was in typical British fashion a mark of recognition seen as sufficiently inexpensive to warrant the expense to the overall defence vote ('war office estimates').  When push came to shove in 1914 getting entire TF units to sign up to the voluntary overseas commitment proved impossible and for that reason the system of 1st and 2nd line units was created, with those men willing to serve overseas going into the 1st line and those men wishing to remain on home defence going into the 2nd Line.  This proved complicated and some regiments had more men willing for overseas service than others, which led to some internal (to the army) wrangling that today might be described as a subtle form of public shaming. 
 

However, as a whole the army was careful not to publicly criticise men who remained committed to home service, conscious as they were that any kind of volunteer was better than a pressed man, and that many of the men committed only to home defence had home commitments, including wives, families and land holdings that made it unreasonable to expect them to be among the first to volunteer to fight on the European continent.

Thanks very much for your explanation.

 

Steve

[clk]

 

Hi,

 

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

21 hours ago, tullybrone said:

Hi,

 

It looks to me like a handful of men in the rear rank are wearing what appears to be the Imperial Service badge above their left tunic pocket?

 

Does that help to date the photo?

 

Steve

 

The tablet (badge) was instituted in 1910, Steve.  There's nothing in their dress that dates it more specifically than between 1910 and 1914.  Indeed a great many units were at their annual Summer camp in 1914 when the mobilisation order came through.  However, they were such significant milestones in the history of TF battalions that the location of camp each year was usually recorded, so if there were a photographers mark that could tally up it would be possible to tell the date.

 

Their camps appear to have been as follows:

 

Images sourced from Findmypast

 

Regards

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, clk said:

 

Hi,

 

 

Their camps appear to have been as follows

 

 

Regards

Chris

Brilliant stuff Chris, we just need GWF1967 to say whether there’s a studio annotation or perhaps a postmark if the card was sent.

Edited 25 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Brilliant stuff Chris, we just need GWF1967 to say whether there’s a studio annotation or perhaps a postmark if the card was sent.

Sorry folks,  didn’t know you were waiting for me!

There’s no photographer named, and no postmark, the back of the card is blank.

 It does look a good fit for the camp ground at Aberystwyth (Lovesgrove / Capel Bangor).

Under normal conditions I’m on site there for a week every August. 

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Sorry folks,  didn’t know you were waiting for me!

There’s no photographer named, and no postmark, the back of the card is blank.

 It does look a good fit for the camp ground at Aberystwyth (Lovesgrove / Capel Bangor).

Under normal conditions I’m on site there for a week every August. 

Thank you, that make sense.  I did have a gut feeling that it might well be Aberystwyth.

[Dave1418]

On 23/04/2020 at 23:59, GWF1967 said:

7th R.W.F. T.F.  Camp.   

Five point stars, crossed rifles with star?, Imperial Service badges, wristwatch, and a pay book on show.

In the bottom left corner is some 08 Webb equipment which what I believe to be an 1888 bayonet which perhaps has them still using LLE’s

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Dave1418 said:

In the bottom left corner is some 08 Webb equipment which what I believe to be an 1888 bayonet which perhaps has them still using LLE’s

The majority of the TF were still using LLEs in 1914.

[GWF1967]

5 hours ago, Dave1418 said:

In the bottom left corner is some 08 Webb equipment which what I believe to be an 1888 bayonet which perhaps has them still using LLE’s

Thanks Dave; good spot. 

[GWF1967]

Pte. Clarence William Ulett. 3048 - 226123.  1st Monmouthshire Regiment.

B.1898. Newport, Monmouthshire.