Postcards

[RNCVR]

22 minutes ago, seaJane said:

Bryan,

Would Vice-Adm Thomas' staff have included Fleet Surgeon E.A. Penfold, do you know? I'm guessing not, to judge by all those gold cords... if you're interested I can link you in to Penfold's report on what Jutland was like for Barham's medical staff.

He would not have been on Adm Evan Thomas' staff, Medical officers at that time were not part of an Admiral's staff, altho he might have been part of the Officer complement of HMS Barham, as Fleet Surgeon he would have been senior Medical officer on board. I dont have 1916 or 1917 Navy Lists to confirm.

The 'gold cords' are aigulettes worn by members of an Admiral' s personal staff.

Yes, Pls send me link you have mentioned. I would much like to read it. You can message me if you wish

 

Thanks, Bryan

[Sepoy]

Over the years, I have found it much easier to acquire Naval related photograph albums, than Army or RFC/RAF related albums, despite living in an Army/RFC/RAF area.
Naval albums also tend to include some really interesting photographs of action. Here is 9" gun in action on board HMS Grafton firing on Turkish positions during the Gallipoli Campaign.
It is interesting to note that the Seaman, serving the gun, appear to be "bare footed" - Health and Safety would have kittens!
Sepoy

 

Edited 24 February , 2020 by Sepoy

[RNCVR]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 
Yes, I’ve often dwelled on the huge loss when the likes of Invincible, Queen Mary and the Black Prince went down.  The lucky ones must have been those killed instantly when the main magazine blew up. 

 

Loss of life at Jutland was very heavy: 

Battlecruiser Indefatigable -1,107 lives lost, 2 survivors.  Battlecruiser Queen Mary - 1,266 lives lost, 9 survivors, Battlecruiser - Invincible 1,026 lives lost, 6 survivors;  Armoured Cruiser Defence - 903 lives lost, no survivors, Arm'd Cruiser - Black Prince - 857 lives lost, no survivors.   Plus the many lives lost in Destroyers.

The Battlecruisers & Armoured Cruisers their loss was very quick, majority of their crews would not even know what was happening to them, for majority of their crews death was pretty much instantaneous(fortunately).

I have the medal group to the Bandmaster of HMS Black Prince, both her & Defence had Maltese bands on board & all went down with their ships.

Edited 24 February , 2020 by RNCVR
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[FROGSMILE]

15 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I have the medal group to the Bandmaster of HMS Black Prince, both her & Defence had Maltese bands on board & all went down with their ships.

 

Yes, the Maltese bandsmen were mentioned recently in a thread on the forum about Italians killed fighting in the British and allied forces during WW1. It included some photographs.

[RNCVR]

Yes I posted that info & included photos of Bandmaster Urso, his medal group & some of the Bandsmen KIA at Jutland.

 

Link: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/276928-italians-in-the-british-army/?tab=comments#comment-2852028

 

 

Edited 25 February , 2020 by RNCVR
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[RNCVR]

An Edwardian period RPPC of a Stoker Petty Officer taken by Aquillina, Valetta, Malta, a well known photographer of the time

Am unable to make out his first campaign medal but I think his second campaign medal is East & West Africa 1896-98, plus RN Long Service medal. 

Edited 25 February , 2020 by RNCVR
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[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, RNCVR said:

An Edwardian period RPPC of a Stoker Petty Officer taken by Aquillina, Valetta, Malta, a well known photographer of the time

Am unable to make out his first campaign medal but I think his second campaign medal is East & West Africa 1896-98, plus RN Long Service medal. 

I wouldn’t want to arm wrestle him!  The hard and unrelenting physical labour that those stokers went through routinely was by any measures extraordinary. His physique even though obscured by uniform bespeaks that I think.

Edited 25 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

I wouldn’t want to arm wrestle him!  The hard and unrelenting physical labour that those stokers went through routinely was by any measures extraordinary. His physique even though obscured by uniform bespeaks that I think.

 

No not a great idea to get into any kind of tussle with Stokers.  They were hard tough men & could be & were disciplinary problems at times.

However their brawn was a definite asset, the pay was what drew them in - Stokers were better paid than Seaman - in the mid 1880's a 2nd class (entry level) Stoker was paid(yearly) 30\8\4 compared to an entry level Ordinary Seaman at 22\16\3.

A Stoker PO came in at 44\2\1, whereas a PO1st class came in at 39\10\10.

 

To power a coal burning Ironclad(Battleship) in that time frame required a Stoker & ERA complement of approx 1\2 the total Ships Company.

 

Now in July 1914 the basic pay rates were unchanged with an Ord & Stoker 2cl making same wages as in 1884!

A Stoker PO with 3 yrs in rank now made 60\16\8, whereas a PO1cl with three yrs in rank now made 57\15\10.

 

However, I have more images of Stokers & will post them in time. 

For now a closeup of a large shot of ERA's & Stokers paraded on shore from their Depot Ship HMS Asia in the late 1890's period. 

ERA's are in the first two ranks & the photographer has not managed to get them all in the shot. All of the ratings in the photo are Stokers, the Stoker PO's & Leading Stokers being in the first couple ranks.

 

Bryan

 

Edited 26 February , 2020 by RNCVR
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[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I wouldn’t want to arm wrestle him!  The hard and unrelenting physical labour that those stokers went through routinely was by any measures extraordinary. His physique even though obscured by uniform bespeaks that I think.

 

No not a great idea to get into any kind of tussle with Stokers.  They were hard tough men & could be & were disciplinary problems at times.

However their brawn was a definite asset, the pay was what drew them in - Stokers were better paid than Seaman - in the mid 1880's a 2nd class (entry level) Stoker was paid(yearly) 30\8\4 compared to an entry level Ordinary Seaman at 22\16\3.

A Stoker PO came in at 44\2\1, whereas a PO1st class came in at 39\10\10.

 

To power a coal burning Ironclad(Battleship) in that time frame required a Stoker & ERA complement of approx 1\2 the total Ships Company.

 

Now in July 1914 the basic pay rates were unchanged with an Ord & Stoker 2cl making same wages as in 1884!

A Stoker PO with 3 yrs in rank now made 60\16\8, whereas a PO1cl with three yrs in rank now made 57\15\10.

 

However, I have more images of Stokers & will post them in time. 

For now a closeup of a large shot of ERA's & Stokers paraded on shore from their Depot Ship HMS Asia in the late 1890's period. I will try to tak a better shot of this photo so you can get an idea of the numbers.

 

Bryan

 

It’s interesting to see their stance in the ‘at-ease’ position with hands clasped in front, which around that time was also used by the Army.  It was very much a thing of the late Victorian era.

Edited 26 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

12 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s interesting to see their stance in the ‘at-ease’ position with hands clasped in front, which around that time was also used by the Army.  It was very much a thing of the late Victorian era.

 

Yes, this was the normal "at ease" stance at the time. It seems to vary which hand is over which tho. I think it was to be right over left. Also the right foot was placed at a slight angle behind the left foot, you can see the ERA wearing the (presumably) Long Service medal in the first rank 4th in from end(including the sailor) is at this stance, altho the ERA beside him to his right is completely relaxed. It appears tho as if they could stand pretty much how they wished judging by the various positions they have assumed.  This would never happen at HMS Excellent, the Gunnery school !

I have edited the photo above to include the entire photo plus a closeup to give an idea of the numbers involved. These ratings on board HMS Asia would have been awaiting a sea draft or undertaking various courses available to ERA's & Stokers at the time. 

Edited 26 February , 2020 by RNCVR
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[FROGSMILE]

What striking images!  The serried ranks really convey the strength and power of the RN and ERA and Stoker Rates.  The ranks look to me by a crude visual and approximate headcount to be at least around the strength of an entire infantry battalion of the same period, and thats just with the two rating types included.

Edited 26 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Ironclads of the latter Victorian period carried a crew of approx 700-900 (sometimes larger depending upon what they were employed at or what Fleet they were part of) of which approx 1\2 of the crew were made up of ERA's & Stokers. They operated & maintained all of the major & auxiliary machinery on board ship. Also the Ironclads burned a huge amount of coal even at economical steaming, fréquent coaling ship was a necessary evil. It took several shifts of Stokers to trim & move this coal from bunkers to furnace virtually 24\7 when the ship was at sea.  Thus the requirement for a large complement of Stokers.

As the 19th Century progressed and the RN grew less dependant upon sail power & more dependant upon coal\steam power the Engineering branch became quite important & grew increasingly large, this being borne out by this photograph. 

Very happy you have enjoyed the photo Froggie! I hope I am not edging the Army photo enthusiasts out!

Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

I hope I am not edging the Army photo enthusiasts out!

Bryan

 

Always room for images of the senior service in that era, Bryan.

Edited 26 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 I hope I am not edging the Army photo enthusiasts out!

Bryan

Bryan, It’s good to see variety. 

Great photos and very informative thanks. 

[robins2]

7 hours ago, RNCVR said:

Ironclads of the latter Victorian period carried a crew of approx 700-900 (sometimes larger depending upon what they were employed at or what Fleet they were part of) of which approx 1\2 of the crew were made up of ERA's & Stokers. They operated & maintained all of the major & auxiliary machinery on board ship. Also the Ironclads burned a huge amount of coal even at economical steaming, fréquent coaling ship was a necessary evil. It took several shifts of Stokers to trim & move this coal from bunkers to furnace virtually 24\7 when the ship was at sea.  Thus the requirement for a large complement of Stokers.

As the 19th Century progressed and the RN grew less dependant upon sail power & more dependant upon coal\steam power the Engineering branch became quite important & grew increasingly large, this being borne out by this photograph. 

Very happy you have enjoyed the photo Froggie! I hope I am not edging the Army photo enthusiasts out!

Bryan

keep them coming, seldom seen photos, look forward to seeing more 

[Dragoon]

14 hours ago, RNCVR said:

I hope I am not edging the Army photo enthusiasts out!

Bryan

Not at all Bryan, these are wonderful photos, please keep them coming!

 

Chris

 

 

[Sepoy]

17 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 I hope I am not edging the Army photo enthusiasts out!

Bryan

Hi Bryan
I am certainly enjoying your photographs and the most interesting Medal groups being worn.
It is such a shame that people did not add their names to the back of the photographs, to allow us to research them all. It is such a bonus when a name is found.

Anyway, here is a mixed Naval and Army photograph (un-named) to please all.
A Leading Seaman from HMS St George with 2 Good Conduct Badges; a Leading Stoker (passed for a Stoker Petty Officer) with 2 Good Conduct Badges from HMS Indus. (He is wearing a Queen's South Africa Medal without clasps); and a Private from the Devonshire Regiment wearing a Brodrick Cap, with one Good Conduct badge.

Sepoy

 

(Sorry, if I have posted this before)
 

Edited 27 February , 2020 by Sepoy

[Toby Brayley]

38 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

a Private from the Devonshire Regiment wearing a Brodrick Cap, with one Good Conduct badge.

Sepoy

 

 

 

 

That is just stunning, thank you! I have been looking for an image of the Devon's in the cap for a while (I will drop you a PM) !   It is also a perfect illustrative comparison of just how different the "Brodrick" is to the Naval ratings cap. Often confused but totally different.

 

 

Edited 27 February , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

Unsent postcard. A rare glimpse of the Cambridgeshire Regiment on manoeuvres and an even rarer glimpse of the seldom seen "Jones Equipment".  Pictures of it in use are very rare, it also provides  the only images I have seen of the rear of the equipment. 

 

 

 

 

 

[ARABIS]

45 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

Hi Bryan
I am certainly enjoying your photographs and the most interesting Medal groups being worn.
It is such a shame that people did not add their names to the back of the photographs, to allow us to research them all. It is such a bonus when a name is found.

Anyway, here is a mixed Naval and Army photograph (un-named) to please all.
A Leading Seaman from HMS St George with 2 Good Conduct Badges; a Leading Stoker (passed for a Stoker Petty Officer) with 2 Good Conduct Badges from HMS Indus. (He is wearing a Queen's South Africa Medal without clasps); and a Private from the Devonshire Regiment wearing a Brodrick Cap, with one Good Conduct badge.

Sepoy

 

(Sorry, if I have posted this before)
 

 

The two naval ratings are Petty Officers 2nd Class 1901-13. Leading rates wore an anchor only, no crown.

 

ARABIS.

[Gardenerbill]

What does the propeller badge on the Indus man signify?

[RNCVR]

Arabis is correct, their insignia is PO2nd class in use until 1913.

 

 

The propellor badge is Stoker 1st class.

Edited 27 February , 2020 by RNCVR

[Gardenerbill]

1 minute ago, RNCVR said:

The propellor badge is Stoker 1st class.

Thank you Brian thought so, interesting images by the way keep them coming.

[RNCVR]

The Victorian PO2nd class insignia.  I have CDV's of ratings wearing this insignia & will get to them eventually!

 

Bryan

[RNCVR]

Thanks & much appreciated all of the positive comments I have received on my RN RPPC's.  I just hope that I am not boring the readership. 

I have been collecting RN images for 50 + yrs now & its really nice  to be able to show them & also keep their memories alive for another generation to view.

 

Couple more images.... 

Chief Stoker, likely a post war image, he wears the RN Long Service medal & it appears to be Edward VII.

 

Chief Mechanician - this rate was introduced just prior to 1WW to give promising Stokers a chance to advance up the ladder by taking various advanced machinery maintenance courses to qualify them for Engine Room Watchkeeping certificates & bridge the gap between Stokers & ERA's.  He also wears the RN LS ribbon.

A Stoker just qualifying as a Mechanician would wear the Stoker 1st class badge (as shown in the RPPC posted by Arabis) but with the addition of a star beneath the propellor.