Postcards

[4thGordons]

On 14/01/2019 at 03:46, Toby Brayley said:

TF Gordon Highlanders, Garrison Military Police.  I assume he fell out with one of them! 

 

 

Can you see the battalion number clearly on the shoulder titles? It looks suspiciously like a 4 on the lower image -- which is obviously of great interest to me.

A couple of the faces look familiar (chap standing on back at right as we look in particular)

Is there any indication on the back where these were taken? The fact that two have unmodified SD jackets and at least one is wearing an Imperial Service badge - suggests early war and I am wondering if they may be from Bedford (although the building does not ring any bells)

Chris

 

[Toby Brayley]

8 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Can you see the battalion number clearly on the shoulder titles? It looks suspiciously like a 4 on the lower image.

 

 

I am sure its a 4 in the S.T, drop me a PM and I will send you the original cards. They will have a much better home with you! 

[Gardenerbill]

Picked up this postcard from the Collectors Emporium in Manchester. I think he is (correct me if I am wrong) a private in the Machine Gun Corps wearing a 1908 pattern belt, a simplified pattern service dress jacket issued between autumn 1914 and summer 1915 and a soft or trench cap. He has 3 overseas service chevrons which means the jacket is probably original and not a later refurbishment.

 

 

[Muerrisch]

13 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

Cpl. Frank Dutton. 13827. Gloucestershire Reg.

Badged as an assistant instructor of signalling. This is unusual for a lance-corporal, but not unique. Many units had more than the sergeant thus qualified

[GWF1967]

1 minute ago, Muerrisch said:

Badged as an assistant instructor of signalling. This is unusual for a lance-corporal, but not unique. Many units had more than the sergeant thus qualified

Many thanks for your observation. Every day is a school day!

[GWF1967]

Lt. / Capt. Howell Alfred Morgan. Brecknockshire Battalion, South Wales Borderers.   " Maes-y-Coed, Ystalyfera".

B. 1886. Ystradgynlais.

Aden. - 2/7/1915.

This link, http://www.ystradgynlais-history.co.uk/howell-and-hamilton-morgan.html 

has him commanding the "Maxim M.G Section" in Aden, then in command of H. Coy (men of Ystradgynlais, Brynamman and Seven Sisters) in Mhow, India. 

 

 His nephew was Flt Lt. Hamilton Morgan, R.F.C;  The link shows him having landed a DH6 on Drum Mountain, Ystradgynlais. 

[Andrew Upton]

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 15:08, Gardenerbill said:

... a simplified pattern service dress jacket issued between autumn 1914 and summer 1915 and a soft or trench cap. He has 3 overseas service chevrons which means the jacket is probably original and not a later refurbishment...

 

The Simplified SD jacket was only MADE between late 1914 and early 1915, when manufacture ceased and production reverted solely to the original more complicated type - however, in terms of ISSUE no difference was made between the two. Although the Simplified type became increasingly less common as the war progressed and stocks were used up it could have been issued at any date after manufacture during the war, and the c.1918 insignia shown here is probably very good evidence of a similarly very late date of issue rather than the survival of a jacket in daily use from 3 or more years earlier.

 

Edited 11 February , 2019 by Andrew Upton

[4thGordons]

16 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

The Simplified SD jacket was only MADE between late 1914 and early 1915, when manufacture ceased and production reverted solely to the original more complicated type - however, in terms of ISSUE no difference was made between the two. Although the Simplified type became increasingly less common as the war progressed and stocks were used up it could have been issued at any date after manufacture during the war, and the c.1918 insignia shown here is probably very good evidence of a similarly very late date of issue rather than the survival of a jacket in daily use from 3 or more years earlier.

 

I agree completely - somewhere I have a picture from 1919 of Gordons in Germany as part of the occupying forces and some of the men have both Pattern 14 leather equipment and Simplified SD jackets on (immediately) post-war pictures.

 

Chris

[Gardenerbill]

Hi Andrew and Chris,

I take your points but as with many things WW1 you can only speculate, here there are 3 possibilities:

1. The simplified jacket was issued new late 1914 early 1915.

2. The simplified jacket was a refurbished jacket reissued any time after summer 1915.

3. The simplified jacket was issued new any time during the war.

I think 3 is very unlikely, my understanding is the stocks of new simplified jackets were mostly issued by the summer of 1915, a very small number may have been around in stores after that date, but the chances of this being one seem very remote to me.

2 is the most likely as the jacket does appear to be in good condition given the late date of the photograph.

1 is still a possibility as the jacket shows some signs of fading and wear below the belt.

 

 

 

[wainfleet]

It is rare to see simplified jackets being worn in 1918 but it did happen. In addition to the photograph Chris mentions, there is one dated to 1918 in I Was There showing a British soldier in Macedonia with one (he is arming grenades, sitting with a French soldier IIRC).

 

I have never heard of jackets being "refurbished" and am not sure how that would work. They were sometimes issued "part worn" which as far as I know meant just that. The working life of a new SD jacket would obviously depend on the conditions it was worn under but on active service it would normally be a few months or even weeks. As Andrew has pointed out, no distinction was made between the patterns and given the enormous quantities of stored supplies, it must have happened that older patterns occasionally surfaced. Any servieable clothing would be issued rather than discarded, so that I think Andrew and Chris's explanation is the likely one.

[Toby Brayley]

Member of the Rifle Brigade sent in 1910. Interesting to see the 5 button Serge Frock worn for "walking out" in the U.K. A custom that seems to become more frequent by the start of the 1910s.

 

[Toby Brayley]

Royal Artillery Room Inspection. 1888 belts and MkIV Waterbottles and the Victorian era leggings mixed with S.D/S.D caps possible R.G.A?  

[Grovetown]

On 11/02/2019 at 17:07, Gardenerbill said:

1. The simplified jacket was issued new late 1914 early 1915.

2. The simplified jacket was a refurbished jacket reissued any time after summer 1915.

3. The simplified jacket was issued new any time during the war.

I think 3 is very unlikely, my understanding is the stocks of new simplified jackets were mostly issued by the summer of 1915, a very small number may have been around in stores after that date, but the chances of this being one seem very remote to me.

2 is the most likely as the jacket does appear to be in good condition given the late date of the photograph.

1 is still a possibility as the jacket shows some signs of fading and wear below the belt.

 

There were 32.5m service jackets ordered between August 4th 1914 and January 31st 1919.

I've never seen anything to say at what rate Simplifieds were issued, compared to others.

 

Demand (for all patterns of jacket) was 30,000 per week.

 

The US alone made 1.3m Simplifieds in 1915. For most of them to be issued between January and end of June 1915 would require an issue of 54,000 per week.

 

And then add in British-made items...

 

As there were 1.35m jackets still in stores in 1919, late issue of Simplifieds seems entirely possible.

 

2 hours ago, wainfleet said:

They were sometimes issued "part worn" which as far as I know meant just that. 

 

 

Cheers,

 

GT.

Edited 13 February , 2019 by Grovetown

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Royal Artillery Room Inspection. 1888 belts and MkIV Waterbottles and the Victorian era leggings mixed with S.D/S.D caps possible R.G.A?  

 

 

Yes I think you are bang on the money with RGA, Toby.  The leggings were specifically RGA issue in Clothing Regulations and also wore the canvas suits that we see here more frequently, for gun drill and manoeuvre with the heavy gun emplacements. 

Edited 13 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Member of the Rifle Brigade sent in 1910. Interesting to see the 5 button Serge Frock worn for "walking out" in the U.K. A custom that seems to become more frequent by the start of the 1910s.

 

 

 

Clothing Regulations stipulated that men (regulars) joining battalions warned for overseas posting were not to be issued with tunics, but should wear frocks in lieu.  If to be fitted with a warm lining (wool) this was to be at soldier’s own expense.

Edited 13 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Strange that the frock, abolished in 1902 for regulars, should still be issued in 1910 but, as we say, never say never.

 

Similarly the India Pattern frock was to be worn on return Home until Tunic issue, and again a lining could be purchased .....probably a good idea in a British winter!

 

Incidentally I have never fathomed the simultaneous issues/wearing of 7 versus 5 button scarlet etc  frocks pre 1902. The RACD ledgers afforded me no profound insight when last inspected.

Edited 13 February , 2019 by Muerrisch

[Toby Brayley]

23 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Strange that the frock, abolished in 1902 for regulars, should still be issued in 1910 but, as we say, never say never.

 

 

Incidentally I have never fathomed the simultaneous issues/wearing of 7 versus 5 button scarlet etc  frocks pre 1902. The RACD ledgers afforded me no profound insight when last inspected.

 

I would love to find the answer also. Post #6210 is just one example of the 5 button frock still in use post 1912.  I can't imagine them lasting 10+ years without a replacement Frock. Perhaps as their use fell out of fashion they used up old stocks? 

Edited 13 February , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

I seem to recall issues in August 1914 to new recruits.

[FROGSMILE]

There are numerous photos of new recruits in early 1914 wearing issued frocks as walking out dress along with the usual forage cap, swagger cane, white gloves, combination.  In my copy of the 1914 DRs for British Regular soldiers there is still mention of ‘serge’ frocks for issue to almost all arms and ‘tartan’ frocks to rifle regiments.  In the table of issues they were allocated for Foreign Service, with Tunics for Home Service.  Soldiers joining battalions scheduled for foreign service were issued with the latter at Regimental depots in lieu of tunics.  In some cases Regiments had both battalions on foreign service.

Edited 13 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Gardenerbill]

6 hours ago, wainfleet said:

I have never heard of jackets being "refurbished" and am not sure how that would work.

If you search the 'Unforms, Cap Badges and Insignia' sub forum you will find many references to refurbished jackets, I didn't make this up.

[Gardenerbill]

4 hours ago, Grovetown said:

For most of them to be issued between January and end of June 1915 would require an issue of 54,000 per week

 

Actually re-checking posts by Joe Sweeney they stopped making them in June 1915, I still maintain that it is unlikely but not impossible that a brand new simplified jacket would be issued in 1918.

[Muerrisch]

Searching "refurbish/ refurbished jacket" I found 4 posts only. I am not skilled at searching however.

 

Two by Gardenerbill, two by Frogsmile. None provide chapter and verse or reference or authority. Not that I am bothered much one way or the other, but I am curious as to the source of the information on a refurbishment programme. The effort involved in recovering, cleaning and mending a part-worn garment seems a false economy compared with huge numbers of new in stock after the first surge.

 

I don't want to take sides, just interested in the origins of the claim, which may well be true.

 

Convince me please.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Searching "refurbish/ refurbished jacket" I found 4 posts only. I am not skilled at searching however.

 

Two by Gardenerbill, two by Frogsmile. None provide chapter and verse or reference or authority. Not that I am bothered much one way or the other, but I am curious as to the source of the information on a refurbishment programme. The effort involved in recovering, cleaning and mending a part-worn garment seems a false economy compared with huge numbers of new in stock after the first surge.

 

I don't want to take sides, just interested in the origins of the claim, which may well be true.

 

Convince me please.

 

I think this thread covers the subject quite well: 

In particular take the time to open ‘Catfishmo’s’ link(s) which reveal some photos of the uniform refurbishment centres from the IWM collection.

Edited 13 February , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I think this thread covers the subject quite well: 

In particular take the time to open ‘Catfishmo’s’ link(s) which reveal some photos of the uniform refurbishment centres from the IWM collection.

 

Joe Sweeney's information in post 5 probably sums up things quite well:

 

"Usually, with Jackets and trousers they would be inspected and be determined to be deemed servable or not. If unservicable they were to be bailed and sent to the UK for recycling into blankets etc. Serviceable items were repaired for re-issue and marked as category W (worn). These were not intended to be re-issued to frontline troops but instead issued in emergencies to UK troops, also issued as work clothing to specific units and Labour Corps."

 

That last sentence speaks volumes.

[Gardenerbill]

If we can rule out refurbished jackets then I still believe the man in my postcard is most likely wearing his original issue jacket but another possibility is that it isn't the one he was issued with as, again I have read somewhere, that uniforms could get mixed up when they were cleaned.